h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

But speaking whilst we come to learn to know, is the only way.
Not until we have learnt everything ,should we learn to be silent.

Hasslefree, I agree with your earlier point that the whole idea of fate is something which has been invented. It can be argued that the world is a chaotic place and all we have to fend for ourselves with is our free will. For some that could lead to a sense of desperation at the futility of it all. So, people have made up fate in an attempt to justify things they can not control and also to take the pressure off them. It is a lot easier to sit back and let things happen, attributing them to fate, than to do something. It takes away the responsibility to make your own choices. In effect, you leave things to chance believing that fate will deliver you alright at the end.

Karl Marx said that God was "the opiate of the people" (I might have misquoted and I may have attributed the quotation to the wrong person), and I think that fate can be considered another "opiate" that people need in order to get them through the day. I could well be wrong but that's my opinion on it anyway. Plus, apart from the quotation above, I'm leaving God out of this. That's a different argument entirely.

Wow, this is a pretty deep conversion I've joined!

No it was Marx but he said Religion is the opiate of the people.

I think the quote is "religion is the opiate of the masses." and you attribute it correctly.
I think though, God and religion are not the same thing.
i believe in a creator but I do not believe in religion.
I agree that fate, karma, call it what you will, can also mean "not my responsibilty' and therefor can be as dangerous as you suggest.
I believe in fate, but I believe we choose our own fate, therefor it is our responsibilty.
I believe soul chooses it, the good, the bad and the down right ugly.
We choose it in an act of free will.

Life is like a rabbit hole, we can go as deep as we like ...or not... as we like.

Did Karl say it in English because if not, some things get lost in translation, many people misunderstand Des Cartes due to English translation, and not just verbally, culturally too, I reckon that the bible was probable mistranslated in parts and so major misunderstandings have occured from minor language difficulties.

Oh God what have I done?! In an effort to sound educated I used a quotation which has led to this! At least I got it right in that it was Marx that said it.

Glad you all knew what I meant though.

St. Jon, I seem to remember something that my old RS teacher said about quite major themes in the Bible being screwed up by translation from Hebrew to Greek to English. One was that it wasn't the "Red Sea" that they crossed but the "Reed Sea." That and it was mistranslated that Mary, mother of Jesus, was a virgin. Aparantly it was meant to only say young lady. So there you go. I don't know which language Marx said it in though.

Is God free from religion? I suppose it depends which form of religion you're talking about. If religion=faith in God then I suppose they can't be different, but if you're talking about institutionalised religion (where may you go along with religion just for the sake of ritual rather than a belief in God) it's a bit murkier but I suppose they are separate. Not that I'm trying to offend anyone! What does anyone else think?

I don't think that God would create fate though because that would deny us free will. Perhaps God works through sign-posts rather than a rigid framework? I would hate to think I'm not free to make my own choices...

I think Marx in England when he wrote it
He's buried here too.

Dr Nick
I think I said We choose our own fate.
If you read my post again I don't think I wrote that God or any creator choses it for us.
Look how a few simple paragraphs we have written have not had their meaning understood
All religions are man made by their nature
God isn't man made.

Yeah, I added that last bit as an afterthought but when I went back to look at it it looks like I'm saying that you thought God chooses fate. It was meant to emphasise how we must make our own decisions rather than them being made for us by a "supreme being." Sorry 'bout that

That's OK.
Sometimes I click to write and then forget what it was I was responding to because it's not in front of me anymore.

Damn I hate that, so I normally open another window with the text and one to type on. If God were a settled issue, I think we would have heard about it, but the issue is "murky" and so I doubt the atheists or the theists we ever be able to convince one another, especially as we are a particularly strange race.

This is the way I see it:

If our destiny was predetermined (at the risk of repeating myself), by whomever/whatever/etc, then we are more or less saying that we have no free will. By saying that then we are accepting that we are no more than a "conciousness" riding on our awakeness, feeling like we are making these decisions but in fact not - which is rubbish. We make our own fate because we make our own decisions.

Am I turning this into the Free Will Debate? I don't want to dig up exhausted issues, but to say our end is already planned, then it is saying that we do not make our own decisions... I know I do - I had to go over this and re-edit so it made a little bit of sense for you people to understand.

If you disagree that we do not have free will, please get that thing whoever makes your fate to help you write a reply so I can understand why I felt like I wrote this, but didn't.

Did you turn it into a free will debate or did I. Was it fate that did it or did will all choose to talk about it. Is there such a thing as "free" will or "determined". Since everything that has free will is restricted in some sense. I'm free to choose whether to stay a locked room if I don't know it is locked, but I'm predetermined to stay in there. I'm free to get up and fly, but I have to go through a series of procedures of hiring a plane and paying and refueling it and so forth.

Isn't free will about fate and therefor part of the topic?

>>"Who knows does not speak; who speaks does not know." (Lao Tzu)

>>What can I say?

Anything you know nothing about, I guess....

At the risk of starting a religious war....All these deities/forces/ powers/ destinies which render us not in full control of our futures are the products of our immature ancestors minds in attempting to explain that which they could not otherwise comprehend.
Science has brought many explanations which trash traditional beliefs, often dragging unwilling theologists into defending ridiculous standpoints...for example the age of the planet, solar system and universe in relation to the chronology of the bible.
If the weak & insecure require a crutch to lean on then let them have it but don't expect the enlightened to follow. Fate/coincidence and all that guff are just mathematical improbabilites happening...no matter how numerically improbable something may be it could still happen!
How's that for contentious?

I mean that, even though that the title is Fate? it doesn't mean that we are compelled by it to talk about it. If we have free will then why do we feel the need to talk about it here. And that quote above two posts away is on favourite quotes is it not?

Everything is predetermined, free will exists as your opinion
of fate. You can't change the book but you can write about it.

What you believe in is true - for you.
The book changes every time someone different reads it.

hello, can i play? another conversation guaranteed to make me look like a fruitcake. goody! i love cake

anyone think that God and fate not inextricably linked then? (more calvinism, vicar?) God creates us, and makes us aware of right and wrong and good and evil and ben folds and enrique iglesias ! but not being God or gods ourselves, we cant see into the future, we cant have absolute control over what happens in our lives, so we have to choose which way to go with the information and options available to us, as we see through a glass darkly. God is not, as spinoza observed, a puppeteer, no fun for anyone and no human dignity if we are chasing our own tails up the yellow brick road, whats the pt in creating the mysteries of the universe if the ones were going to find out about are already neatly wrapped up in string at the finish line? but though i dont blieve in pre determination, i do think that God has an influence in our lives, and in intercessions and miracles but thats another story which u r probably not intensely interested in.

i just wondered if anyone agreed there might b a mid way between being alone in a chaotic univerese and having a totally planned future? being in control of your choices but having the kind of option to play the help card, somtimes known as prayer?

i do blieve in soulmates however but thats another kettle of