h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

To be honest I really don't know how to respond to the events of the last few days. I can't seem to get a proper word in on the already ongoing threads because I'm not really very rational about this and a lot of people in the threads are unbelievably rational(relatively speaking). For this I applaud you, but I can't do it. Every time I stumble upon a more or less 'rational' discussion I hear "Unknown number of casualties" in the back of my head and I see this :

[pressrelease]
Partial list of those killed in Tuesday's attacks :
-- Christine Hanson, 2, Massachusetts.
[/pressrelease]

To put it mildly : I am p*ss*d off like you wouldn't believe.

Yes, that's right : I am a lifelong pacifist who is really mad as H*ll. If they can provoke that response from me, then let the responsible idiots be extremely afraid of what the U.S.A. is going to do next.

IMO what happened on tuesday is the start of something entirely new. I am not talking about the retaliation that will undoubtedly follow at some time or another. I'm talking about the fact that the rules of warfare have now radically changed.

For years I have been critical of any aggression of one state or group against another. Even the U.S.A. could count on a critical word from me(for whatever that is worth by the way), if they used their military power. I did not gloat when Iraq was bombed, I did not agree every time that Israel bombed the westbank, and neither did I applaud the use of violence by *any* terrorist-group, left- or right-wing, religious or not. I opposed Neutron-bombs in Europe and in those days I even used to write the odd protest-song about it.

But the rules were simple : a state, especially the USA, would retaliate whenever they were attacked. And have a way out to make it possible to say "O.K. we have responded. This was it. We have achieved our 'goal'".

This is now history. The most stupid thing that anyone could have done just happened. A target was picked that has no direct military value whatsoever but instead held *tens of thousands* of civilians.

The ONE reason that the U.S.A. had to limit their response was the opinion of reasonable people in the western world. But what do I say to the americans now when they decide to bomb Afghanistan, Iraq or whatever country ? You are being uncivilized ? Not really. Not anymore. No one has a valid response any longer. The U.S.A. will simply point at the New York skyline and say : "Look mommy, no more Twin Towers".

This was not a terrorist act, this was indeed an act of war. As far as I know an unprovoked attack directly aimed at the heart of a nation is an act of war. And nothing else.

What makes me the most angry is that I now have no arguments left to defend 'a moderate stance'. I can't, because I keep hearing ""Unknown number of casualties" in the back of my head and I see :


Partial list of those killed in Tuesday's attacks :
-- Christine Hanson, 2, Massachusetts.


TM.

On my father's suggestion of twenty years ago, I am currently reading Winston Churchill's collection, The Second World War. I finished Book 2 last week, Their Finest Hour, that includes a thorough explanation of the Blitz of 1939. As an American only in his forties, I found it difficult to imagine the overwhelming changes the English people must have gone through in 1939. It would not be fair of me to compare September 11, 2001 to the weeks of bombardment London sustained in September of 1939. As most know, an average of 200 German aircraft a night attacked London in that terrible month.

Today I am beginning to better understand the changes faced by Londoners in those days. I can see all of our lives profoundly changed. It is clear that America and its NATO allies will endure, however, I would not be surprised if the events of this week quickly change the lines in the sand drawn by Churchill's pen so many years ago.

This may sound harsh and I'm certainly not condoning what the terrorists have done but logically speaking destroying the World Trade Centre was a highly intelligent thing to do. Barbaric, yes. Insane certainly not. The terrorists have grabbed media attention. They have disrupted the economy which could trigger a world recession. They have made an attack on capitalism the bedrock of American life. The psychological aspects of this attack are also huge. The result of this is possibly far more devastating than the attack on the Pentagon. The economy affects nearly everyone throughout the Western world and a fair number in the rest. More military targets could have been attacked. The White House could have been attacked. And less civilians killed. But the effect on the global population may not have been the same. The attack on the Pentagon may have impeded the US military but the distruction of the World Trade Centre is a blow to countries acros the globe. It can be more effective to cripple a country financially than destroying their military. I can't imagine a single worst strike that could affect so many people in so many different countries.

Hello DMS,

Thanx for responding.

[quote]
Barbaric, yes. Insane certainly not.
[/quote]

Anyone who even tries to do a thing like this cannot be regarded as sane. Intelligent maybe.
So we disagree, but that's o.k. I don't kill people over that...

[quote]
The psychological aspects of this attack are also huge.
[/quote]

Grief fades with time, hatred does not. They may have achieved a 'victory' in the short term but they are going to pay for it for years and years to come. As will, if I might add, lots of innocent people. And that also means "their own people".

[quote]
The White House could have been attacked. And less civilians killed. But the effect on the global population may not have been the same.
[/quote]

No indeed. They have managed to completely alienate every well-meaning person on the globe.

[quote]
I can't imagine a single worst strike that could affect so many people in so many different countries.
[/quote]

Exactly : In your words : "First strike". This implicates an act of war. And this is where they went wrong. They have gotten away with terrorist acts for years but this is a war-like situation to say the least. And I think they have overplayed their hand.


What those criminals have done is dig graves for numerous people around the globe, especially for people in the Middle-East. And perhaps these graves will be filled today, perhaps tomorrow. But it will happen. This makes me extremely sad because I have no desire whatsoever to see this happen. They have annihilated any chance of the U.S.A. responding in a "limited way". They have given the U.S.A. a moral 'right' for retaliation on a scale as large as there military leader(s) can come up with.

Once the bombing starts the U.S.A. will spend less time trying to avoid civilian targets than they have done so up till now. And even until now too many civilians were killed in attacks(Tripoli for example). This will get worse.

So sane : No way!
Intelligent : Yes obviously.
Ethics : None.

What do you get when you mix intelligence with insanity and a lack of ethics ?

A psychopath. And a bad one at that.

TM.

TM, you speak well. When ways of life change and norms become redefined, our very way of thinking takes a radical swing. I learned that moving to Japan for a three year term from the western States this spring. To experience a completely different way of life is to change our way of thinking. I must emphasize though, it did NOT change my political affiliation, it did NOT change my religion, it did NOT change my nationality. I am still American from head to toe, hand to hand. I used to think that we did make ourselves overpowering in other people's business. I used to think that we should step back and let the rest of the world hash it out. But at what cost?! Think of the Taliban. People say, "They have their own will, they are living what they think is right, leave them alone." So we did. Now thousands of innocent people are oppressed by Islamic extremism. They cannot call home. They cannot wear what they want. They cannot eat what they want. Everything in their life is governed by the "religious police". We thought hard-line Christians were bad. Regardless of religious beliefs, what happened in New York City and Washington D.C. is a despicable, horrific outrage. Even the leaders of Libya and Iran have stated that. LIBYA AND IRAN. If there are two countries that have been vocal of their hate to us, they are Libya and Iran, but even they cannot believe this atrocity. Not even after we bombed Qhadafi into homelessness. One of my superiors at my place of employment told me today, "Well, your president makes many enemies." What has he done to anybody? George W. Bush is the quietest president we have ever had, in my lifetime anyway. We did some things that ticked the world off, like walk out of an anti-racial discrimination conference with Israel on our heels, and we let Israel continue there domination of Palestine. We put Israel there, AGAIN in the late 1940's (the first time was thousands of years ago by the Hand of God), why would we put THEIR lives in danger by making them stop? Look into the history books, and you will see how and why we stand where we stand. People call the U.S. the atrocious warmonger of the world. When there are floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, civil wars, famines, diseases, disasters of any sort, who is their to help? The United States of America, with money, people, and resolve. When the United States of America has floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, civil wars, grave injustices, famines, diseases, disasters of any sort, who is their to help? The United States of America. Who else? Someone? Anyone? Speak up. We can't hear you. Why? Answer that question in your heart.

"The Islamic Jihad believes that to meet their Creator they need to die in a Holy War. We will be glad to knock on THEIR door and help with that cause." --my father from home 2001.09.11

I agree completely with TM. I am also against violence of any kind. If the US does not act, more terrorist attacks will happen and not just here in the US but everywhere you have a fanatical group. I sit awake everynight watching all the news reports and crying for all the people who lost there lives, not just the american ones but ALL. The WTC had innocent civilians working and visiting there. Think about the childern that are now dead. Think about the childern who have now lost one or both of there parents how do you explain that to them. Who is going to comfort them. I personally am still trying to find out if some of my friends are alive and every minute that passes the chases get worse. I have always comcidered myself a reasonable person and try to see both points of a situation but this was not a reasonable act, and I can not see clear to being reasonable anymore.

My connection with this act of violence is personal. My brother's sister-in-law and her husband both worked on the 9th floor of the WTC. Fortunately they were in South Carolina on vacation. My best friend and coworker here has also been affected by it. His sister from South Carolina works for a company whose entire departmental management team was in New York on the 81st floor of the WTC. They are dead. Everytime I see pictures of the events I gape in awe. I see much country bashing and flame-throwing at different people groups of this forum and it makes me sad. My Australian, Canadian, British, Indian, and Japanese friends all stand in unison with us Americans. I also work with Chinese, Burmese, Mongolian, Thai, Taiwanese, and many other peoples of many different nations. Some are fully sympathetic. Others are not.

Stephen

This isn't about just the US acting. Hundreds of British people are dead as well, and the number of Germans and Japanese who died will probably be similar. Many other countries, from Austria to Zimbabwe, will probably have lost citizens as well. It was an attack on the world, and it should be the world that will act.

The one problem with all this comparison of 'war' and 'terrorism' is that no-one is taking into account the firebombing, carpet bombing, starvation and sanctions that the US and Britain have been visiting upon other peoples for decades. Where do you draw the line between what constitutes a terrorist act and what a warlike one?

I don't defend any act of violence, but also let's not lose sight of the death and destruction that we 'free countries' visit on others all the time in the name of 'freedom', which usually turns out to be the freedom of the market.

And if you think this is sick or cynical, think how long it took before the news reporters started thinking about how much money was being lost as the markets closed down. Not long at all.

I am not a journalist and I did not think of that the first two days. And when I did I dismissed it as irrelevant.

[quote]
Where do you draw the line between what constitutes a terrorist act and what a warlike one?
[/quote]

That is a very good question and I have asked myself that many times. But tuesday was definitely *not* a terrorist-attack. I have read about those in the news and they were all quite different.

However, you are perhaps not getting my point : until now we could all say that the USA was operating on the edge or even sometimes over the edge. That has now changed because I do not believe(I cannot remember) a similar attack by the USA.

Remember that the USA has had a strict policy of non-intervention. After Vietnam the americans have been extremely reluctant to get involved in global affairs. This was sometimes a good thing and sometimes a bad thing, bit it was most definitely a fact.

But I think I am digressing here... My post stated that I cannot be reasonable about something like this. And to be honest, the last thing I want to discuss are the American policies of the last 50 years. If we would do so we would also have to look at what the others have been upto so far. And that would be at least as bad and get us into a discussion that I think is not pertinent at the moment.


What does a two year old kid know about such things ?


TM.

Although I did not state it, I also have lived my life as an extreme pacifist but now have a new viewpoint. My most sincere apologies must be expressed to TM. I feel my first reply to this focus may have directed it towards political policies. My intention was to agree with the point that... the way we live our lives has changed.

We could examine this topic through any aspect of the way we live our lives. I would say future topics to this thread could include (but are not limited to):

What I did on my summer vacation. (2002)
The price of tea in China.
Is this the queue to the loo?

Of course, the body of any message would imply that:
It use to be this way but now it is THIS way.

No apologies necessary Worker B-167755! Well I wouldn't know what for anyway...

The reason that I did not thread on the political side of this all is that that has been/is being done all over the web *and* all over h2g2.

My post is perhaps more like that guy in that movie "Network": "We're mad as H*ll and we're not going to take it any longer!"

As I said before, If someone really wishes to judge the Americans over what they have been doing abroad for the last 100 years I suggest that he of she do so thoroughly. Starting with the Truman-doctrine, straight on to America's involvement in WW I and WW II, Korea, Vietnam and on to Lebanon, The Gulfwar, Somalia and Bosnia. However, I advise everybody to read a good historical encyclopedia first. And then reread it. In history nothing is black and white, it's all is grey.

TM.