h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

God is the product of many people in olden, olden, olden times who could not face the fact that life is crummy and that you only get one chance at it anyway. They therefore began to "believe" in (create) a mystical, magical, superior being who made the WHOLE world by "magic"
and will reward us or punish us when we die. Obviously other people who were depressed thought "Hey! That's a good idea!Maybe i haven't really wasted my life! Maybe i'll be rewarded for it when i die! YEAH!" and so forth. This "god" has obviously splintered off into a hundred different religions, larger than anyone at that time would have believed. However, notice how every religion has one thing in common? One or more Gods. Why? Because it all came from the same idea. Maybe several people across the world had the same idea at different times.Nevertheless, God was created so people didn't have to face up to the facts that life is unfair, mean, and at times braindamagingly cruel, because "I'll go on....to a BETTER place!"
Visions of God are not proof either, if you want something bad enough, even subconciously, OF COURSE YOU ARE GOING TO SEE IT IN YOUR DREAMS! Later on it was manipulated by the religions such as Christianity to control the populace, i.e. follow our rules and live in paradise when you die, burn in torment if you don't. In fact, in medieval times, if you donated all your land and belongings to the church, you were asured a place in heaven. This applies to all other religions, of course. Clearly that doesn't happen nowadays, everyone has forgotten the things said centuries ago, religion has evolved if you will. Nevertheless "God" has not changed. I give to you, MY definition of God..."cough" "cough"....


God is an antidepressant


There you have it ladies and gentleman, i rest my case.

Very well said .
There are so many good reasons why God was made up. It's great!
Another major one is to tell the poor abused peasants that their poverty will be rewarded. So instead of them wondering why they do not get more, and why the monarch is so rich, they just accept that they will have a better life after they die, so it is alright for them to slave and live in misery for the rest of their lives. Its a lot like a get rich scheme - for the low price of basically everything you have, you will learn how to make it big is the afterlife. Great offer .

Of course you guys realize that this gives me an excuse to hunt you down, screw you up the !@#$%^&*, slowly torture you to death for my own amusement and then use ID in your wallet to assume your identity and take your things. Of course, the police will come after me, and you could always do the same thing to me FIRST, but hey, life is cruel anyway.

Wow. You almost quote Karl Marx's "religion is the opiate of the people." Instead of God being made up in order to help mankind hope for something better than what their crummy lives offer them, how about this notion:

Atheism is made up in order to help mankind delude himself into thinking that there are no eternal consequences to actions committed here and now. It banishes guilt. Without a supreme God, each man becomes a god and justifies to himself any action, however heinous it may appear to others.

Atheism is a balm to sooth the slacker's conscience and free mankind of any responsibility. Nobody likes to be told what to do. Nobody likes to feel guilty. Nobody likes to think they need to change anything about himself. Nobody likes to challenge or inconvenience himself.

Perhaps for many people, an applicable definition of God might be *cough *cough

God is uncomfortable
(A corollary to this would be ... so let's pretend He doesn't exist!)

Hanz.

Nearly right.

In fact we can explain the origin of god very simply - it's all down to there being no street lights in olden times.

When we were gibbering ape-type things, huddled on our cliff ledge listening to the sounds of the night in the jungle below and in a perpetual state of terror, then god was the explanation of all those crackling whooshing croaking and screaming sounds.

But since street lighting, we can see what is responsible and the requirement for a god has simply evaporated.

How do I know? I was there. Those jungle sounds sure put the fear of god into me.

Q*bert - you sound like a true Christian .

Hanz - you have just said exactly what I disagree with!
With Jesus the lord you become complacent. In the New Testament God has had a mood swing and is very compasionate - no more sacrificing lambs or wandering in deserts. If you ask for mercy, you get a free pass to paradise. Great deal! Therefore, even if you have sinned, as long as you believed, you're in the clear.
Now, I'm an atheist, but I'm probably a humanist. As cynical as I might be, I believe people need morals and guilt. But unlike the Christians/Jews/Muslims who use the Carrot & Stick approach, I believe in responsablilty. To a theist, you need to coax the human to do things right. You must make him fear everlasting hell if he does wrong. Get paranoia if he sins as this deity can see everything. But if he's good, he goes to heaven. The theist makes the human selfish - not sinning in order to avoid hell, helping others in order to get on the good side of God.
That is what I cannot stand. I have much stronger ethics than any person I know. I'm not trying to gloat them or something. I hate lying, as I feel guilty of doing so. I try to be modest, but not get on the good side of God. I do it because that's what I believe. I do it so I don't feel bad. Yes, it is for psychologically selfish reasons. But it is not in order to get into heaven.
Not having a deity watch over you does not remove guilt. If people stopped believing and devoting themselves to God, and instead worked against conservative thinking and tried to make our society better, we'd live in a much better world. If instead of campaigning against scientific research, pro-life people got their act together and did something to benefit society and not impose their view on others, the improvements would be magnificient. And finally, if people didn't feel better than others because of their religion (and don't deny that you do), the world would be fantastic!
People shouldn't be kind because of a deity taking notes on whether to let them in to their garden, people should help on the here and now - the place we live in. Atheists aren't moral vacuums. They've realised this is probably our only life, and therefore we should concentrate on it and nothing else.

Disclaimer - please don't be personally offended by the text above.
I may have refered to "him" and "he". This applies equally to both sexes and I do not mean to discriminate in any way .

It gets quite tiresome for an atheist to be viewed as in some way selfish or having deficient morals destinined to burn in hell for all eternity etc. etc.

Without wishing to get into the god debate (because its their debate not ours so lets just leave them to it), explore instead the implications of atheism. Tis thought comes because I'm quite bored with the whole is isn't thing and neither side will get anywhere very far or very quickly. We may be able to get someqwhere by ourselves. Try to stay away from any theist arguments and you arrive at some interesting personal responsibilities.

These personal responsibilities are of course all optional and not everyone may choose to fully subscribe to them and choose one over another when they conflict. The moral responsibilty for any choice is a personal one so moral choices weigh quite heavily on the individual. (notice I haven't said what they are, that bit is personal too)

An interesting aside is that though there are, I understand, few confirmed atheist states, those which have the best human rights legislation, although not necessarily the best human rights record, have the greatest affinity for the "atheistic principles". (whatever you personally may choose them to be)

anyway,

TTFN

Hmm hmm. I am only aware of one state that has atheism written into its constitution (that is, of course, different from states where the constitution is silent on religion or guarantees freedom of religious expression).

That state is Albania. Enough said.

Hey guys,
For starters, Hanz man, what is up with THAT? You are a psycho! Yes life is cruel ,as are you apparently.
I feel that, in answer to (i think it was Q*bert) Atheism is not a way to relieve yourself of guilt, nowadays we don't need any form of guilt relief, really. We all are educated enough to realize the consequences of our actions and take responsibility for our actions. If we need support whilst dealing with the consequences of our actions, family or friends are at hand to help us as we would help them. However it could also be argued that theism itself is a form of guilt relief, if you've sinned you can confess, there are "hail Mary's" etc... God then forgives you. Although yours is a valid point, it could be argued the same for you. However, really both beliefs are capable of relieving guilt, however atheism relies on you taking responsibility, theism relies on the "forgive and forget" basis.
I totally agree with everything Mr Cynic has to say, I commend you sir! No wonder you are a guru.
As for Wol, you better not be insulting Albania....I'll have you know that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with Albania, and in all seriousness i'm sure it's a picturesque and wholesome country thank you very much!

Terribly sorry, Q*bert is the freak, Hanz is the one with the valid point! SSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!

I'm still apoligizing, i can't say how sorry i am to have mixed up a maniac and a serious researcher with some interesting viewpoints that i can respect I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS fully,
sorry again! sorry!

In the few minutes i have just spent doing the washing up, i have developed yet another, possibly communist (apparently) theory. It is as follows: God is the result of socialisation by our parents. You see, if our parents and teachers suddenly stopped teaching us about God, i feel that no-one would bother to create one, or believe in one. Nowadays, we no longer need to feel secure, and that we might be rewarded by some supreme being watching over us. God was created when we had to hunt for food, had mud houses and life was ridden with terror and danger. However nowadays we have created machines to cater for our every need. We even have Foot spas. Little baths specifically so our feet can feel nice. When we created God, our feet were like leather!!! However now we have a life of comfort and security, if no-one taught us about God then he would never come about again! Lastly, you could say that i only don't believe in God because i don't like the fact that i'm not in control of my own life, yet it is infintely more feasible that i AM in control of my own life than that some magical, mystical, being that you can't sense in any way, (but is there, trust me) is in control of it.

Who isn't attracted to the idea of there being "something more", even if you are an atheist? Isn't it nice to be able to aspire to exceed yourself, or to have belief in something other than self?

I am all for self-responsibility. The humanist in me lives by "These are my actions, and these are my consequences." I believe consequences happen here and now, and we bring them on ourselves. In life I try to do what is "good" simply to be a decent person -- the material consequence being that I can live my life relatively free from the interference of police, lawyers, bankers, and the like.

I do not place blame on external forces -- "God" and "Satan" may very well exist, but what happens to me, happens to me because this is a world full of happening things where things happen.

Why does war happen? Because mankind gets jollies from adrenaline. Why do disasters happen? Because mankind has weather/tectonics/bad decisions. Why do we have death? Because without death there would be no room for new people. Why do good things happen? Because although good things do not always happen to good people, fewer bad things tend to happen to people who keep themselves on the proper side of what is socially acceptable, and because every once in a while luck cuts people a break. Why do bad things happen? Because they do, it's the luck of the draw for everyone.

In spite of having strong practical views the spiritualist in me finds the idea of a greater Mystery very appealing. Carl Sagan talked about "the numinous" in his book "Contact." What concept gives you goosebumps? That's something numinous, something Greater.

Another thing: if we're alone in the great tapestry of the Universe spread out before us, that's sad. If the Universe spread before us occured as an accident, that's tragic.

I guess the optimist in me chooses to believe that the Universe was something other than an accident, and that each of us is capable of making a contribution to something Greater that will continue beyond our limited span. I call this Greater "God" in order to have a convenient referent.

As part of my personal responsibility I do not believe this God is a Father Christmas to be bargained with to change the consequences I might face for my actions, or to change my luck. I live my life for the here and now, not expecting any distant reward but simply taking what is given to me and doing the best I can with it.

As for what waits in any potential afterlife -- I know no more than any other person who has yet to die. I'll do the best I can, and I figure that will be resolved when I die, and I'm not dead yet.

Regards,

-Joe G.

It is very true that most states are not atheist.
But that is mainly because such a move would be contraversial.
It would also not pass a vote as the majority of people are secular, but keep the notion of God in the event of a crisis.

I agree with you Bilge, God is a result of fear (see http://www.h2g2.com/F58051?post=743476?thread=90419 ). God is also a result of deluded responsability. Parents are bewildered by the different consequences of how to bring up a child that, even the secular, decided to teach it about God. But I'm baffled why do you keep mentioning communism?

"Who isn't attracted to the idea of there being 'something more', even if you are an atheist?"
Me. I am not attracted to the idea as long as the 'something more' is God. I do not find the idea of this egotistical deity obsessed with people praising it attractive. This deity that sometimes decides to punish people by making them stroll the desert for a few decades and sometimes thinks moving about beads is good enough. This deity that feels obliged to create us but also to create a vast spectrum of things to kill us. This deity that acts in such a two-faced manner - putting people into slavery, then releasing them. I am not attracted by this concept but deeply repulsed. If God did exist, I would not praise it.

Cynic -- I use "God" because the name is convenient and the concept has some generally positive connotations -- as well as the negative ones you apparently carry.

I find it amusing that in my first post to the "what is God?" conversations I was accused of being a Godless blasphemer who should repent immediately in the face of dire peril to his immortal soul, now I am apparently grouped with the religious loonies.

The rest of the post from which you quote talks about my belief of something more, not in Christian terms, but according to the personal understanding to which I have arrived with my eyes and ears open to the world around me.

I for one am very glad I have no power over weather, the sun rising and setting, or the 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the universe over which I have no direct say or influence.

I let the Greater sort itself out, and it seems to do just fine without either my help or my worrying over it. War, famine, and presidential elections are beyond me. In spite of my fretting about these problems the world licks its wounds and goes on anyways.

Beyond the negative side of life (cancer, taxes, and Brittany Spears -- evolutionary controls we must endure since we are no longer culled by lions, tigers, and the occasional testy wildebeest) there would appear to be a net good to which individuals can contribute, which continues beyond their lives. I choose to strive to add my part to that good -- people may call it what they choose to call it. Again, "God" is a convenient name, but for your sake I'll call it Reginald if that helps you to feel more comfortable with the idea.

I accept responsibility where responsibility is due and try to keep the net balance of my life on the positive side, trusting that the rest of the Universe a/k/a Reginald will sort itself out in its own time, not mine.

If that makes me a loonie so be it, I prefer to think of myself as being open to new ideas.

Yours in Reginald,

-Joe G.

I'll consider you as an "open-minded" looney .
I disagree with you about the God being a "greater good". In definition, God is a being and God has a conciousness. Both these facts rule God out. I believe in a greater good - but this isn't to do with metaphysical beings. I am a socialist and I hold socialist ideals. I strive to better our society. Unlike many theists who sit there doing nothing. And then there are the active theists who instead of productively use their time to try and improve things, blabber on about God and sit their praying for his help. I dismiss Reginald if you say it has a conciousness. I believe in the universe. I do not believe it decides what to do or can influence events in such direct ways as the Bible describes.
And I may sound narrow-minded and fixed in opinion to you. But I am very open-minded. I often rethink my conclusions. The reason why I seem so sure of my beliefs is because I'm in a situation where I have to defend them, and thus undermining the argument I have come to see as ridiculous is what I concentrate on .

Actually I'm sort of pseudo-agnostic. I severed most of my ties to organised religion a while ago, although I'm a SubGenius, if that counts as disorganised religion. I believe God himself/herself/itself/themselves is/are unknowable. And I apologise if I came off as a "freak" as somebody else called me in this forum. I think from his posting Mr. Cynic at least, got the semi-humourous intent of the posting.
My basic point was that if you take away guilt, and you take away the "carrot and stick" approach, then I don't see any motivation for doing "good" (whatever that means). In fact, you don't even have to take away guilt. Take away the carrot and stick approach and people will start questioning the basis for the guilt on their own. ("Wait a minute... if the philosophers and politicians et al. making the rules aren't giving me any motivation, why am I letting them define what's good...") Really, the whole of human society is based on carrot-and-stick interactions. "I give you Mammoth steak, you sweep my cave"
Mr. Cynic or somebody will probably point out that to be really responsible for yourself you shouldn't be listening to the philosophers et al. anyway. That's an admirable doctrine in theory, but in practice there's always going to be contradictions and conflicts about how people apply their ethics which affect huge groups of wildly different people, and this is where the problems start. At this point, I get this feeling that the advantage goes to the b******s -- the people who are so beaten down and embittered already that they reaIly DON'Tcare if they hurt others. I don't see how a mere idea of responsibility will help -- what good's responsibility going to do against the folks who say "That'll teach you to mess with me"? They KNOW they hurt you, and take full responsibility for the full and just consequences already -- but they completely disagree with you as to what "the just consequences" are. Nobody ever does anything without first convincing themselves that they're justified in doing it. They'd do it again, if the situation called repeated itself.
So this is my point: while I don't think God is within our grasp, I do think that there are certain things that are inherently good. I have no complaint with atheism itself, I think that a lot of the atheists in this discussion haven't been giving the theist enough credit. When at its best and most sincere, religion is the idea that what is inherently good is an active force (usually personified, but not always-reconstructivists Jews see God as a natural force, like gravity) and also that it's stronger than what is inherently bad. Atheism, unless it gets really pessimistic and depressing, believes essentially the same thing, except they prefer to see the inherently good as something inside humans and don't like the idea that it might exist OUTSIDE of us, as a platonic ideal-thingy or an inherent property of the world. So really, Atheism *is* a religion. It's the worship of humans, or some integument or aspect thereof. Therefore ergo SO, (I'm wrapping up, really) every argument you've made against religion applies equally well to Atheists. Everything that isn't totally DEPRESSING is a religion. Or nothing is. Or there's no rational or useful distinction between the two. Or kill me.

Yes, this reduces human beings to animals. Yes, I'm still basically a misanthropic freak. And yes, this whole long pedantic argument was concealed within my original posting in joke form. You just don't understand satire, or holy scripture. Send "Bob" $30 US and read it again.

Bilge
I never said that Atheism is a way of relieving guilt...but it somebody could use it that way couldn't they?

Thankyou! I hate valid points. It takes so long to explain them to the little people (Ibid.)

in yr 11 religion, we learnt that religion can be best defined as "how a person views the meaning of life" - God is only part of it - Buddists don't believe in God, or even Heaven or the divine.
God is not the same as religion.