h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>...Anybody who approaches any question at all with a scientific inclination is by definition unbiased. The nature of Science is such that it teaches us the truth through discovery, through experimentation, through observation.<<

Bwahhhahahahahah!!! Such faith in science is really touching. There are biases in science. Do I have to remind you of the phlogiston theory, the Newtonian view that was overtaken by Einstein; Einstein's own scepticism with regard to quantum theory. It would seem so! Science has never claimed to tell us 'the truth', just what is best justified by the available evidence and might be overturned by the next observation.

Actually I approach Theism with a scientific inclination as does Polkinghorne, for example. http://www.meta-library.net/bio/sirjo-frame.html According to you, that makes us both unbiased! Polkinghorn is an Anglican priest

Right on, Della. I've just thrown a Real Person at Door: Sir John Polkinghorne, sometime professor of mathematical physics at Cambridge and now a vicar.

Fnord, over the last ten thousand plus posts I have stated most of my beliefs but you have to read between the lines to discover them.

No I don't only link to articles that you I agree with!

My main beliefs;

The Universe has always existed but it may be cyclic.

The Sun was originally part of a binary system and the solar system are the remnants of the Sun's companion star.

All things and beings evolve.

Life is universal; where it can exist, it will exist.

We are preprogrammed at birth but we can change our programming.

We have free will.

Extra sensory perception is natural.

There was no Aryan Invasion of India; Vedic India is the oldest, largest and most central of ancient cultures going back over 50,000 years.

Druids took their name from Dravidian Indians.


Alji

Alji. You might be surprised to hear that I don't disagree with any of your beliefs. There are a couple of points I don't agree with either!

I'll list you as a member of my church Toxx!!!

Alji

I saw that Toxxin, excellent!

Yeah, I tend to agree. You've got a very well-laid-out perception of things, Alji.

Your beliefs, Alji - very interesting!
>>The Sun was originally part of a binary system and the solar system are the remnants of the Sun's companion star.<<
That's a fascinating idea. One thing that I wrote an sf story about, was the asteroid belt - there's a theory that it's the remains of a planet.
>>Extra sensory perception is natural.<<
I agree about that. (Not that I've experienced *much* ESP, but still...

Oh, and thanks for the support, Della.

You're welcome! We mayn't agree about *everything* (I think you may be a bit creationist) but, well, you're welcome!

Yeah, I am, but all that matters really is the salvation Jesus brings!

That's where, I think, we agree.

Phew...theres a lot of postings on this and forgive me, I only managed to get through a few half dozen randomly, so if I repeat whats already said, sorry, however, for what it is worth...

Regarding Catholic faith: Having gone through the mill with the education, apart from the religeous stuff the rest was good. (In me first school that is, the second was a let down, which probably explains why I am more inclined towards Buddhism)

I digress, it struck me a good few years ago that any religeon is based on power and control in regards to its interpretation, administration and overall approach- Mass being spoken in Latin for example, like your average wee man off the street in the fifties spoke Latin fluently. No doubt it is possible to list a multitude of examples where a priest/vicar/minister/rabbi/etc gives there own interpretation on a particular passage of the bible/koran/etc, therefore after a period of time their view becomes part of the whole dogma. It seems the postings here reflect each posters own interpretation of their particular faith and if they were high up enough in that faith, they could influence the direction of it. That kinda makes me think "Chinese Whispers" with things getting lost along the way to suit the current climate of those in charge. Seems to me then that the whole thing can happily remain unproven unless some bloke/blokess wearing a white dress turns up saying "Aren't we all feeling a bit silly now?" Then ofcourse someone may suggest that they are an alien and their appearance proves nowt.

The way I look at it, I guess, is that God is a nice idea if he/she is friendly (vengeful god is a little scary) people tend to need something to believe in, why knock someones faith (unless they are trying to offer your firstborn on some kinda alter to appease their faith)and belief is a strange thing. I believe that there is a sock monster eating just one out of every pair. The facts seem to fit...though logic would dictate my belief is a bit...odd. I think having something to believe in is probably more valid than actual proof, that way maybe something good will happen. We live in a cynical age that appears to have existed for as long as the belief in a God/ess, if there is a God/ess, they surely must be quietly pleased folk are still going on about them. Well, that my take anyhow. Thanks fer reading.

No prob.

My hunt for the sock monster continues to this day...
Dratted things 're fast...

Toxx, the best talk I've found so far on http://www.meta-library.net/bio/sirjo-frame.html is by Vandana Shiva, Director of The Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Natural Resource Policy, http://www.meta-library.net/bio/sirjo-frame.html on GM crops



Alji

Myst, on your page you state;

>My philosophy is this: Christianity is a battle against the forces of Satan. I intend to save as many of my fellows before the end<

You would do better fighting the forces of Mammon. Listen to the talk given by Vandana Shiva. The link is in my lsat post.

And here's something you should read;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2003/07_july/24/face_facts.shtml

>Waste product, promoted by a Coca-Cola plant as a fertiliser, has been found to contain a known carcinogen, an investigation by Face The Facts reveals <

>Analysis of the black sludge-like material, conducted at the University of Exeter, reveals that not only was it useless as a fertiliser but it contained a number of toxic metals, including cadmium and lead.<

>Face The Facts interviewed Mr Sunil Gupta, the Vice President of Coca-Cola in India, for the programme.<


Alji

"What I have learnt from attending churches of several denominations and talking to christians is that the broader churh is made up of reactionaries. Who's actions are motivated by small minded bigotry more often than they are motivated by compassion"

Well Jesus did say the mustard seed would grow into a bigotry...

Bod trying to be humourous...

Myst,

"A judge is passing sentence on a shoplifter. The fine is set at (say) £1000. The shoplifter can't even begin to pay the fine, but the judge must see that the law is carried out.
The shoplifter knows this, and knows that he is going to be put away… file bankruptcy, whatever. His record is about to go through the food processor. But the judge’s son, who likes to see his dad at work from time to time, takes pity on the man, for who-knows-why. He begs his father to let him pay off the fine, and in return that the man vow never to do it again, and, if he will, get a job from the son, and never /have/ to shoplift again."

Myst, that's a poor counter. Especially if you replace the £1000 with a death sentence.

Also I don't see any fundamental difference at all between your illustration and Insight's. Unless you're saying that Jesus = son and God = dad. If you are saying that, you need to carefully consider your beliefs because it seems that you're saying that Jesus as supremely benevolent son takes the fall for dad and that dad lets him. Really? Or I have I misunderstood?

If I may be frank, it sounds as though you are seeking justification for a set of pre-baked beliefs rather than developing your own beliefs based on sound reasoning.

And did you even read my post properly? My point was that punishing innocent for sins of guilty doesn't serve the principles of justice. Your reply has not attempted to address that.

Bod

"Hi, everyone.
Bod-
"If hell exists and all non-Christians go there, then there must be a significant number of sentient beings suffering there."
"So the Buddha would probably wish to go to hell rather than heaven, to teach them the path to freedom from suffering. Which would really piss off Satan..."
Of course, for it to REALLY be a h**l of a hell (pun intended), it would have to be set up so noone there could be happy about it. Thus, while there would be many sentient beings suffering there, if the Buddha was there, he would somehow be prevented from contacting them so he couldn't teach them the path. He would be forced to know about them but be unable to contact or teach them.
How else could it be the infinitely horrible place that Myst describes it as?"

Hi R. Good point. I wonder whether Satan would let the Buddha help HIM?

Bod

Hi Toxx / QQ,

I see what you mean
I think...

On the bit "Yep, freewill has a special value in that it makes us moral beings, which is the purpose of our creation. It is this which weighs in the balnce against suffering; a point we have perhaps laboured somewhat."...

Just like my view on free will, my view on creation of moral beings would be a utility-based one: that being able to make moral choices has value only as a TOOL for increasing happiness and reducing suffering. Therefore its introduction adds no value in a world created with perfect happiness. But you think its purpose is not happiness etc but rather that it is itself the PURPOSE of our creation. I guess that's the core point at which our views diverge.

But since you and I both accept the situations in which we find ourselves and seek to be compassionate and wise, I guess that makes little difference anyway.

We've probably reached the end of that part of the discussion, so now's a time to say . I really enjoyed and appreciated talking through those points with you. It's wonderful to have a friend with the patience and the inclination to explore that in such depth.

"<"You can't have freewill and no happiness!"
Tell that to somebody suffering from clinical depression.>
I don't want this do come out as a cheap point, but I have severe deprssion myself."

So did you tell yourself then?

I'm very to hear that. I pray that happiness will find you.

Bod

Myst

>>You seem to ignore the fact that it is part of Jesus's commandment to spread His word. As for being closeminded, I'm as closedminded as any devout Heathen *Waves to Jez*, Hindu, or anyone else who believes that they have found the truth. You've got a pretty big axe to grind against Christianity, though.<<

Thanks for the wave, Myst.

Close-minded... Yes, in that I know that for me the truth is polytheism.

But, unlike you, I know that for you the truth is monotheism (I said so in an earlier post).

It is a different sort of mind-set. Your religion requires that you believe that everyone else is wrong. Mine doesn't.

That's what makes my particular brand of stubbornness different from that of Christians, or, for that matter, atheists. I can accept that there are many paths to the truth, and that the different people in the none worlds can take their own route to that truth. I can even accept that you need a path that says you hold the only right answer - I just don't happen to think it is actually the case, any more than I believe that the atheists have it right. Both viewpoints, are, as I said in an earlier post, seemingly at the opposites ends of a spectrum of belief.

And both are close-minded, when held in their most complete form.

I don't think any of us have the truth.

And I don't think that it matters, as long as we have our own truth, and it makes our lives richer and more interesting.

I believe that (for instance) there is a being who sometimes goes by the name of Tiw who is interested in justice, and who has given many people over the centuries help and guidance in legal affairs, partially through trance experiences.

I'm sure that the being I call Tiw also believes that .

But whether that is the whole story behind Tiw and justice, well, I'll wait and see. But if I follow the codes of justice he has set out, I reckon I'll not go far wrong.

I'll stop now.

Jez - mainly feeling heathen rather than bolshie at the moment.