h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Force not lest ye be forced...

Hey you watch South Park? Hmm...

I can state my beliefs, you dont have to listen, so you know what, YOU DONT EVEN HAVE TO REPLY! just know, I believe what I believe and if I beleive All other religions are hog wash that is what I believe... you wont ever change me... Why argue with me? I am not arguing with you, if you are offended, SO WHAT???

Wll it's just debate isn't it. I find Mormon ideas fascinating, and I suppsoe any group which isn't part of the "norm" is interesting to others. While I don't believe what you believe, I'd like to understand how you got to your beliefs, if you see what I mean.

Hi, just to clarify, "Pyrex" who did the Bahh! posting above is most definitely not a mormon, but is arguing aginst mormonism.

That there sounds like an argument to me. And anyway, I think it's arrogance to think that your way is the only way. How do you know you're right? You have no more solid proof than the Muslims or the Jews or the Catholics. I say they're just as right as you are, since there's nothing solid to prove them wrong. Of course, Christians are so fond of the idea of "faith", as are many other religions. So, of course, you can say it's a lack of faith, and I will say it's a lack of logic.

But, I know nothing, so I might be wrong.

Pyrex wrote:
<>

It is very understandable that the belief of Latter Day Saints that theirs is the true Church is pereceived as arrogant.

What Mormon's are expressing it is a firm testimony of the Truthfulness of the Restored Gospel. In spiritual terms anyone can gain a testimony by seeking it, by seeking the Truth, asking in prayer, and testing the principles involved. The testimony is received by the power of the Holy Ghost, an unmistakeable spiritual witness that it is true. Anyone can obtain this by diligently seeking it. This is called exercising faith, and you cannot have religion without faith.

If the Book of Mormon, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, are True, then it follows that other religions do not have the full Truth. They cannot be just as right.

Individual members of the Church are usually warm and humble, but those who live the Gospel have a strong testimony of the Gospel, gained by living it! The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating of it. If you want "proof" then live the principles of the Gospel.

For part of my childhood, my family was Mormon. When I was 8, my family converted to the Church from Methodism. Yes, I will agree with you that Mormons have powerful testimony, and I will be the first to debunk myths and misconceptions about the religion, as I have quite a bit of respect for it. However, Joseph Smith... didn't he lose the Book of Mormon? He *lost* it. Just misplaced it. Sounds a bit fishy to me. Non-whites were not permitted into the Church until the seventies. There is no scientific evidence that an ark landed in the Americas from the Middle East around 600 BCE. The Bible has scientific proof to back many of the claims it makes. The Book of Mormon has none of this proof, at least not that I've seen. Perhaps I've missed it - I'd be very interested in seeing it if anyone can give me information.

I envy people who can have such blind faith. I, however, cannot. I've always thought that God made me logical for a reason. I'm sure if I ever do find religion, I will be a firm, enthusiastic believer. However, I haven't been convinced so far.

No need to be envious, mine, and most Mormon's faith is not blind.

I converted when I was 26 (I am now 37) after having gone through the whole spectrum, from atheism to spiritualism. The experiences I have had are proof enough to me that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the True Church.

God did make you logical so that you could think for yourself. One of the fundamental tenants of the Gospel is free agency. We have the commandments - the moral template or foundation upon which we told, by God, through revelation and the scriptures, is the best way to lead our lives, and the only way to attain salvation. Nontheless we are free to choose to obey or not. The consequences follow.

The consequences of disobeying (sin) lead to unhappiness, conscience and lack of fulfilment. The consequnces of obeying lead to joy and freedom from sin, guilt and conscience. As I said I have not always been a member of the Church and have tasted both sides. I know (have proof) which side I prefer to be on. Most Mormons have acquired their testimony by understanding this to a lesser or greater extent. It is not a matter of blindly following.

The story of Joseph Smith "losing" the Book of Mormon is taught as part of Church History. The person who was scribing for him, Martin Harris, desperately wanted to show his family and associates the pages they had translated. Eventually he persuaded Jospeh to let him take them. Unfortunately they were misplaced, lost or stolen from him (Martin Harris). The Lord has already provided for this eventuality as he had instructed the original author of the plates that were being translated, the ancient prohet Nephi, to make two sets of plates to cover the same period of Nephite History.

Non-whites were allowed into the church from the beginning but they were not allowed to be ordained as priests until the Seventies. This is more a reflection on man than on the Church. Heavenly Father knew than in the 1800 and especially before the American Civil War Blacks would not be accepted in leadership positions, and that it would slow or even halt the acceptance of the Gospel and the growth of the Church. Heavenly Father had to wait for Man until the seventies to be accepting enough for it not to be an issue. Remember that Martin Luther Kings' civil rights marches were only in the 1960s, and there was still apartied in South Africa until the 1990s. There are now millions of blacks in the Church for whom this is not an issue. This is debated at length on another thread.

There is plenty of archealogical evidence that the Nephite and Lamanite civilisations in the Book of Mormon originated from the Middle East, though most is ignored or misunderstood. There is an author, Ammon O'brien, who has done exetnsive reaerch on this, and has published a couple of books on the subject. On I have is called "Seeing Beyond Today with Ancient America".

Using science to try to prove God unfortunately limits you to man's boundaries of knowledge and understanding. God's is infinitite. Faith therefore is a reuirement, but exercising faith need not be quite as hard as you imagine. It begins with desire - in this case a desire to know the Truth. Exercising faith is a matter of acting on that desire, and the way to do that is to pray to be guided to the Truth and have your understanding expanded.

You need only to ask, with a sincere heart and a willingness to act upon the answers. The answers will probably not come how you expect or when you want, but will be how and when is best for you.

All the best.

I find your argument here interesting :
"Non-whites were allowed into the church from the beginning but they were not allowed to be ordained as priests until the Seventies. This is more a reflection on man than on the Church. Heavenly Father knew than in the 1800 and especially before the American Civil War Blacks would not be accepted in leadership positions, and that it would slow or even halt the acceptance of the Gospel and the growth of the Church. Heavenly Father had to wait for Man until the seventies to be accepting enough for it not to be an issue. " It's not one I have heard of before from members of the Church.

If we agree that Black people deserve to be priests, then surely restricting them because of man is like God giving in to man? And isn't that God interfering in our free will? Here He takes steps to insure His Church survives instead of leaving it to the faith and courage of his followers. It seems odd, especially when He could have intervened in any number of human atrocities or for example, have taken steps to restore the Gospel much sooner. And please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the ban on Black people as priests was because they are supposedly descended from Cain or something. Again please correct if wrong.

As for finding the answers if you ask, that's the dilemma. I'm sure the vast majority of people receive no answers when they pray, there is a deafening silence. Do you think it is possible that those who want religion and answers from God somehow convince themselves that they are receiving answers when there is only silence? Their state of mind ensures they find something?

Mormonism is very attractive to me personally because the secret temple part of it sounds so, well, for want of a better word; glamorous! Sorry if that sounds disrespectful, it's not exactly a good basis for joining a religion is it, me wanting to see a temple!

As for the happiness from following God. I once saw two young Mormon missionaries around town. They went into the same shop as me. All around them young people were laughing and joking. They didn't smile once. They looked absolutely miserable. Perhaps they are happy inside or were having a particularly bad day, but they honestly seemed very solemn to me.

Being God's children He knows us very well. Better than we know ourselves. He granted us free agency to choose, but he also has His own purposes and knows what will influence us in achieving them. Thus he will nurture us, and nurture His Church to allow it the solid foundation to grow. Remember that until Jesus had ascended to heaven the Jews were the covenant people. The Gospel was only available to them and Jesus only preached amongst them.

In the same way there are some countries today where it is illegal to proselyte. Missionaries are not yet sent to those countries.

There are various reasons why "most" people feel they are confronted with a deafening silence when they pray. Do they actually recognise when they get an answer? Prayer is two way communication - do they actually do the listening part? Do they disregard an answer because they do not like it or won't accept it - ie are they sincere? Are their prayers a "wish-list" without giving gratitude and reverence?

Mormon Missionaries in a shop full of young people laughing and joking probably felt a little uncomfortable for one thing. They are after all easy targets. However you hit the nail on the head. Happiness within is what they have. Fun and frivolity are fleeting. Just as those young people get a high from going to clubs and drinking etc... their "happiness" will end in a downer sooner or later. Lasting true happiness and fulfilment does not come from worldy pursuits.

I just happened to be wandering by, and I couldn't help but notice your discussion. A few points should be established....

The whole racial thing, I can't exactly say as I understand it myself. I certainly can't see God giving in to man's weaknesses, but that's not for us to say.

I have my own beliefs, and even though as a student and scholar I could disprove all of them if I so chose, I don't, because like it or not we need faith to make life worth living. I refuse to believe that we evolved from sludge and that evolution could produce a mind as complicated and wondrous as man's. Not possible. My biology teacher made a good point, every interim step in evolution must be proved to be benificial if evolution is to be accepted as fact. Can you tell me that every detail of our bodies could have evolved purely by chance?

This may sound mean, but this is an arguement I still firmly believe in. If I'm right, all atheists are going to be in big trouble in the next life. If they're right there are no consequences for me, becuase I won't be here anymore. Which do you think is more logical?

You are actually correct. Logically you have to put your bets on there being a God and an afterlife. If you bet there isn't you can only lose.

If you place your bet against - and you are wrong - then you've lost.
If you place your bet against - and you are right - everybody has lost anyway!

I'd like to make a point about the blacks and the priesthood.

It was not necessarily a function a race restrictions or politicial and social climate. It came down ultimately to the Lord's timing. Throughout the bible there are examples of the Lord limiting the power of the priesthood. In the Old Testament, not only was it given only to the House of Israel, but to a specific family (the Levites). Likewise, in the early days of the Apostles, it took a revelation to Peter to open the ranks of the church to include the Gentiles (Acts 10).

A lot of people come up with explanations for this policy, but this is the only one the Lord has given: it wasn't the time until He revealed it.

"He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple." (Doctrine and Covenants, Official Declaration 2)

You are absolutely correct.

What mortal men are trying to do is to second-guess the reason for the Lord's timing. In so doing we counsel the Lord rather than take his counsel, or in other words we assume that we have greater wisdom than He does!

I am sorry to interrupt but this conversation but it goes against everthing I believe in so I would like to make a few points:

in response to

"What mortal men are trying to do is to second-guess the reason for the Lord's timing. In so doing we counsel the Lord rather than take his counsel, or in other words we assume that we have greater wisdom than He does!"

This assumes the existence of God. If, like myself, you very firmly believe that there is no god, then humans do indeed have greater wisdom. And, despite the intelligence of your arguments, you might as well be discussing the number of angels that will fit on the head of a pin.

Secondly on the inescapable logic of theism. May I remind you that all bets have a stake and that if i am right as a non believer, I will not have wasted a big chunk of my one and only life hanging around churches, praying to a thing that is not there and trying to convert people whose resentment may turn out to be well founded.

Finally, someones biology teacher deserves a good slap. If you believe that half a wing is of no use then go try to catch a flying squirrel.

and according to the laws of physics - as known to man - a bumble bee cannot fly!

And yet it can.....

You are free to believe what you believe. No one is stopping you or judging you for it.

However, if you are right as a non believer, and there is no eternal life to inherit, then everyone is a loser....

I once was as Athiest as you. Conversion does not come from without, but from within and my own experiences and the sequence of events in my own life have led me to the sure knowledge that there is a God and that Jesus Christ is our Saviour.

Prayers are answered, if they are sincere, if you are willing to listen for the answers and if you are willing to act upon the answer you receive. That too is my personal experience, so I know for sure that prayers and going to church do not waste any of my time but give me power and strength in my life that I otherwise would not have.

Hurrah!

I heartly second that answer. Once you have allowed the Spirit of God to work in your life, the rituals of church take on incredible meaning and power in your life.

And, not to be mean, but I pity anyone who hasn't felt that.

After having said that, I'm going to get a little pedantic for a minute.

The whole "bumble bees shouldn't be able to fly" thing is false. Some aerodynamicist in a casual dinner conversation in the 1930s mentioned that, mathmatically, bumble bees shouldn't be able to generate enough lift to get off the ground. That started the story going around. The theory has since been disproven (if that's a word) by a number of prominent entomologists.

I'm done, back to the original topic. Go.

Thanks for the clarification on the bees. I stand corrected.

You are quite right, I, like you, am free to believe whatever I want.

I certainly do not believe that without eternal life this one is a waste and I pity anyone who does.

I once was as theist as you. And my conversion also came from within. I, however, do not confuse belief (no matter how strongly felt) with knowledge.

The world is full of people who think their beliefs are the truth. These beliefs often contradict each other and they cannot all be right.

As for the bee thing if something appears to defy the laws of physics the chances are that it is our formulation or understanding of those laws that is incorrect.

It is good that you do not confuse your belief, however strongly felt, with knowledge.

You are making exactly the point I am making when you say "As for the bee thing if something appears to defy the laws of physics the chances are that it is our formulation or understanding of those laws that is incorrect."

We, as mere men, lack wisdom and do not have a perfect understanding of all things. Therefore to say that we know more than the creator is folly. We need to recognise more that our formulation and understanding of certain laws can be flawed. Over and over throughout history the latest "knowledge" that man has is superseded and surplanted by a newer idea.

There are many eminent scientists who believe in a supreme creator. Part of Einstein's greatness was that he had the humility to recognise man's lack of wisdom and understanding. He studied the universe trying to come to an understanding of its laws. He concluded his studies with the assertion that it had to be the work of a divine creator.

Closer to home my own brother is a scientist, a professor in telecommunications and a strong member of a baptist Church. Fortunately there are many scientists who recognise that their studies are about trying to understand God's universal laws better and can reconcile their scientific logic and their beliefs, and do not see any contradiction.

If there is no judgement or eternal life then what is our reason to be here? We are born, we live, we die, the end! What point then in morality, in service and in love and families? No accountability - we can just live our lives for our own desired ends. No need to follow rules other than to avoid the penalty of our own laws....

...and upon what do we base our own laws??