h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hey, I know that you guys are pretty firm in what you believe, and i respect you, but
I would like to share something with you that you have probably heard before,
it's about the truth of Christ, how He, as documented in the Bible and non-biblical
history was crucified for you and how He can change your life, I tell you this because what I have is not false in any way because of the deep love and personal relationship I have
found in Him....this message is not in any way meant to offend or judge you, i just wish to
express what I know to be true.....i would not like for you to miss out on something
so special and real, maybe you could ask God to reveal Himself to you,
again I respect you

Welll, let me just break down one of those sentences...

"it's about the truth of Christ" - Oxymoron. Never have there been perpetrated more lies about a single individual than Jesus.

"how He, as documented in the Bible and non-biblical history" Another oxymoron. The biblical accounts contradict each other, and historical accounts are nonexistent or obvious forgeries.

I once believed in all that silliness myself, but then I committed the ultimate sin of knowing too much. An interest in religion and history knocked down so many assumptions until there was nothing left for Christianity to stand on, and it suddenly disappeared in a puff of logic. My little article here is just the beginning, but it may be enough to put you on the path to enlightenment, which is more rewarding than any religion: http://www.h2g2.com/a213247

yes this much is the truth!now lets investigate that jesus opened the doorway to the christ consciousness,and god has indeed revealed his universal mind to you! from the top of the world we stand with god to marvel and share in this energy of profound conscious self awareness,without which we can,t connect,relate or even begin to heal our selves and others as well!
e-mail me you sound profound! [email protected]
feel free to to chat indeed and meet a new friend!

Something funny;

I am not Christian. And something that never ceases to amaze me about many Christians, is the illogicality of your faith in Religion.
Logicality should be the starting point for understanding ANY true religion. A religion is worth while only if it stands up to the times and need of the people. This is an age of skepticism and scientific dissemination. Any good religion should stand up to this, as any good religion should go BEYOND logic. God is beyond logic. I have given up trying to argue His nature, but by logical thought, I have concluded that he does exist. (if you want to hear my arguments, reply to this message)

OFCOURSE you need faith, but not blind faith, so much that you cease to use common, simple, practical thinking.

Wow. A mouthful.

Every *logical* argument for god is a logical fallacy. If you would care to show me your logic, I can show you where it violates the rules of logic, and is therefore not logical at all.

As I said earlier, God is beyond logic, as He is the creator of logic. But, using logic, we can conclude that God exists; nothing more.

This is the logic;

The Universe is transient. People come, people go. Things come, things go. Even planets are created and destroyed. EVERYTHING that is created is destroyed; this is the law of creation and destruction. But, like a painting, all this passing must be on a stable unchanging base. Like the river of the river bed, God is the canvas on which the universe is painted. For something to change, there has to be a relative comparison to something that is unchanging. In all of existence, the "universe" is the changing, and God is the unchanging.

These, however, are not my own logical conclusions. These are the conclusions of the Hindu scriptures. And even then, I'm using the word "God" for our Christian/Muslim/Jewish friends. We call it God, but more truly, what Christians call "God" we refer to as "That" or "It".

'nother mouthfull!

"For something to change, there has to be a relative comparison to something that is unchanging." - This captures the essence of your "mouthful." And, just like a lot of similar arguments for god, it has the same fallacy. This fallacy has appeared in Christian thought as well as Hindu, and goes back rather far. The best example of it that I can recall was Thomas More's six proofs of god, which all used the same basic fallacy. "We cannot have good in the world without something that represents absolute goodness, and that something is god." Or something like that.

However, in your statement, you bring out the weakness in your argument: "relative." Relativity is the name of the game, because change is a relative concept, just like good and evil, hot and cold, love and hate. Change is a relation between states at two different times. For example, the universe is relatively unchanged over the past year when compared to the last 100 million years, which in turn is relatively unchanged when compared to the big bang - present. There is no absolute embodiment for a relative term. There is no god.

"Relativity is the name of the game, because change is a relative concept, just like good and evil, hot and cold, love and hate. Change is a relation between states at two different times. "

True, good and evil, for example are opposites, and change occurs when there is a transition between the two. However, WHAT does this change occur in? People would be the simplest answer. The nature of people changes between good and evil. But in the case of the universe, we have no set range of opposites. The universe itself is change, it can never be changeless, for that itself would be a differentiation, and therefore a change, from its original state of change. This change has to occur on something. That medium Christians call God, and we call the un-personified. We don't really have descriptive word for it.


Shaggy

Good and evil are indeed relative terms, but there is no sudden shift. You're thinking about it as if there was some clear delineating line where something stops being good and becomes evil. That's not how it works. We have two conceptual extremes of good and evil, but nothing ever reaches those extremes. It all falls into the grey areas in between, and we are forced to debate their merits. Some people think xtianity is "good," where I believe nothing has come from it except "evil." The truth is that it is both good and evil. Everything is shades of grey... and so it is also with change. We have a concept of an extreme amount of change, where nothing is recognisable. We have a concept of extreme unchangeability, where everything remains the same through perpetuity. Those two concepts have no existence in nature. "The more things change, the more they stay the same." There is no reason to personify unchangingness, especially since everything changes.

"This change has to occur on something." - What do you mean by "on something"?

I am not thinking good and evil are two definite points of change; OF COURSE the needle shifts between the two. But that is irrelevant.

I did NOT personify unchangingness, I directly said we do not regard this unchanged thing as personified in the LEAST.

Change has to occur on something means this;
Evil and Good are states of being, or attitudes of being, or whatever you want to call it. Whatever they are, they do not just change...good does not become evil, and evil does not become good just like that. A change between the opposites on a scale is reflected on the scale itself, or on a person (in the real world). We see someone becoming good. Keyword: SOMEONE. A person. Change is seen or reflected in that person.

Likewise, all change (i.e. the universe) is seen or reflected in God.


Shaggy

"good does not become evil, and evil does not become good just like that." - Wrong. Good and evil change all the time. At one time in our history, misogyny was good, slavery was good, and absolutism was good. And today, there are shifts in our definitions of good and evil in the areas of gun control, abortion rights, and the death penalty. Good and evil change in people, and outside of people. But it's mostly concerned with people, because it is a human concept.

"Likewise, all change (i.e. the universe) is seen or reflected in God." - This argument still assumes that there is a god, and since it begins with the assumption of god, it cannot prove god, else it becomes circular reasoning. So you still have failed to prove logically the existence of god.

"Good and evil don't just change like that."
I meant, the CONCEPTS of good and evil don't change. What you said just solidified what I said; good and evil is REFLECTED in people (generally). What is good? You can't answer that question without bringing something or someone into the answer. Good and evil don't exist independently of a subject in which they are reflected; be it a thought or a person or a chocolate cake.

"Likewise, all change (i.e. the universe) is seen or reflected in God." I said this for convenience; it is what most religions call this thing. All change in the universe is reflected in SOMETHING. That SOMETHING Christians, for example, call God.

Shaggy

"Good and evil don't exist independently of a subject in which they are reflected" - Exactly. Good and evil are human concepts, and don't exist without humans to interpret them. The same goes for change. Change is a shift in some manner in a given time frame. In order for a shift to be detected, there must be an observer. It's the Schroedinger's Cat situation all over again. If change isn't witnessed or recorded, it cannot be said to have changed. You see yourself in the mirror every day, and from day to day there is (pimples, scratches, or stubble aside) no noticeable change in your face. It is when an observer hasn't seen you in a long period of time, or when you view a record of yourself from the past, that you can get any idea that change has taken place.

Therefore, let's amend your statement, "all change is seen or reflected in God." Because all change is seen or reflected in people. Therefore, people are God. What would you like to be the god of?

Another basic tenet of Hinduism basically does state that we are God!!! Not just part, no. We don't have a little piece, but indeed we are the whole of God!!!


Shaggy

That's what I love about Hinduism. It's contradictory and confusing, but unabashedly so. I don't even think a Hindu can make any sense out of it. Still, it's a religion that I classify as Mostly Harmless, and so I don't find it annoying or offensive.

Mostly harmless?
Whatever...


keep it real,
Shaggy

Ooh! Religious debate! Can I play?

*clears throat*

On the Matter of Christianity and Judaism

I'll start at the beginning. The event that split those two religions was the birth of Christ, right? However, Jesus was a Jew. Sooo, Jesus believed in the Jewish god, Yawe, Jehovah, whatever. So Christians and Jews believe in the same god (and if anyone disagrees, then speak up and I'll disprove you). HOWEVER, Christians believe that all believers of a different faith must spend eternity in Hell, the worst pain imaginable and then some (no wait, and then infinity) simply because they believe differently. Sooo, EVEN THOUGH Jews and Christians believe in and worship the same god (albeit with different names), Christians believe that Jews must go to Hell. Even though they worship the SAME GOD.

What's with that? Will a Christian please tell me why that is?

If it sounds by this posting that I'm Christian, it's because I wrote it in some quasi - sarcastic manner. I am an atheist.

Another thing. Creation. There are all sorts of things that negate it. Whales negate Creation. They have finger bones in their fins and what used to be pelvis bones. That means they used to have legs. That means they used to go on land. That means they evolved. That means they evolved, and weren't Created.

There was nothing before God Created earth, man, and all of the beasts in land or sea, right? Well then, there were no humans, let alone mammals the enoch of the dinosaurs. In fact, it took millions of years for them to come along. And if anyone wants to argue with that, then here's my argument - why are no fossils of humans, if God created man? So, what's with that?

In Genesis, the sky is described as a dome over a flat earth. The Earth isn't flat, and the sky most certainly isn't a dome.

Anyone want to debate?

I want to debate! I... uh, oh.
I kinda agree with everything you said. You forgot, however,
the various primate skulls through which gradual changes
towards a more and more human form can be observed.
Cro Magnon is the closest non-Homo Sapien I think
we've ever found, and the differences between us good folks
and them dead folks is pretty negligible.