h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Funnily enough 77, that is roughly the same as orthodox Islam teaches.

The facts and evidence mostly go against such ideas. The best evidence we have is that all vertibrate creatures have common ancestors.

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The problem Christians face when opening that Pandora's Box of metaphor and allegory is that once it is opened, it cannot be closed. If First Genesis (since you are arguing for the 6-day creation mentioned in the first of the two completely different creation stories) is to be taken as a metaphor, why not the crucifixion and ascension, the very basis of the religion? Why should a single word of the Bible be taken literally?

This is where the Christians hoist themselves by their own petards by attempting to have their cake and eat it, too. They attempt to explain that this part of the Bible story is allegorical, but this other part here is literal fact. The problem is that there is no basis whatsoever for this kind of cherry-picking other than what the Christian decides arbitrarily.

And that's pretty much the basis of Christian belief... arbitrary selection of particular bits of the Bible and rejection of others. How else could the Inquisition and the Ku Klux Klan share a common religion with the Salvation Army and Alcoholics Anonymous?

<,the Ku Klux Klan share a common religion with the Salvation Army and Alcoholics Anonymous?>>

They don't. What on makes you think the Ku Klux Klan is Christian?

What on earth makes you think they aren't?

No, Blatherskite, you made the claim, you back it up! I have just finished a book which, among other things, gives the history(s) of the Klan, including its recruiting phase in the 1930s, when it resembled nothing so much as a pyramid selling scheme! The book is: The Hangman's Knot, by Eliza Steelwater. BTW, if the Klan was Christian, why would it attack Catholicism? (Or are you one of those Americans who thinks Catholics aren't Christian? From that kind of Protestant background, I mean)

hi Blatherskite,

Quite liked posting 122.



hi Della,

Read all about the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/KKK.html

And here is another link:

http://www.fact-index.com/k/ku/ku_klux_klan.html


It seems they do oppose Catholicism, as do many fundamentalist Protestant Christians (not just Americans ). But they do use Christian symbolism. And I think, like many Christians, do the pick 'n mix thing to suit their own purposes.

When Americans come to Spain during Easter Week here in Seville they are often quite shocked to see that the penitents in the processions are wearing 'Ku Klux Klan style' attire.

The difference is that the tall pointy hood used by penitants here is based on the idea that a penitant should be anonymous and not vain in any way - so nobody should be able to recognize him. The KKK also use this disguise for anonymmity but in the sense of not being able to be identified by the authorities.

And so it is clear that the KKK took this mode of anonymous dressing from the Catholics. Pointy hoods that covered their faces, long flowing robes. I see it here every Easter.


az

>And so it is clear that the KKK took this mode of anonymous dressing from the Catholics. Pointy hoods that covered their faces, long flowing robes. I see it here every Easter.<

Hmmm... As the Christian Church has highjacked a few Pagan celebrations in the past, does that mean that Christians are Pagans?!...

Anyway, the KKK are _not_ Christians as they do not really follow [or try to follow] Jesus's teaching... Hatred and murder has never been part of it... They are probably religious and definitely the worst bigots in the universe, but they are not Christians...



loup

hi loup,

I think it's very likely that the Christians adopted the pointy hooded thing from some ancient pagan tradition.

However, one of the links I posted showed the KKK as calling themselves Christian Knights.

<>

Uh huh. So *what* exactly is a Christian then?

You say the KKK don't follow Christ's teachings. But many other Christian factions also operate without specifically following these teachings.

Pick 'n Mix?


az

With all due respect Loup, who died and put you in charge of saying who is and who aint a christian?

Now I know as we all do that some of the things that they do run contrary to what Jesus allegedly stood for but following that logic means there are no christians on this plant mate. yes they are much worse than people who drop buttons in the collection plate or dont even turn up to church, but where can we sensibly draw a line ruling in some who break christina code and call them selves christians and others who break more rules in a worse way but still call themselves christians.

Della calls herself a christian, but she threatens violence and even death on some people. She attends a church some other christians would not consider a christian church and oddly believes in reincarnation but she is still broadly speaking a christian.

The KKK are as violent, hypocritical and bigoted as those who burned witches, rode on the crusades, forced slaves into christianity, abuse children in their flock and cover-up sexual abuse. They are just as much christian as these people the popular image of christians, the one churches like and like to put across is not the full story.

George W. Bush and Tony Blair are both christians.

one love

Hi azahar...


>I think it's very likely that the Christians adopted the pointy hooded thing from some ancient pagan tradition.<

So it is not really a Christian thing then...

>However, one of the links I posted showed the KKK as calling themselves Christian Knights.<

That still doesn't mean that they are Christians...

><>

Uh huh. So *what* exactly is a Christian then? <

Someone who tries to follow Jesus's teaching... you know: "Love your neighbour etc..."

>You say the KKK don't follow Christ's teachings.<

Jesus never said to hate and kill people, quite the contrary...

>But many other Christian factions also operate without specifically following these teachings.<

Then they are just religious, _not_ Christians...

>Pick 'n Mix?<

Nope...

loup

>With all due respect Loup, who died and put you in charge of saying who is and who aint a christian?<

No-one... But, I thought we were allowed to say what we think on this site... so I said what I thought of the KKK...?!


loup.dargent

Sorry, loup, but if a bunch of whackos call themselves Christian Knights then one must assume there is *something* Christian about what they believe.

It might not be - and probably isn't - what you consider a good Christian to be.

But this has always been my point. That just about anyone can call themself a Christian. That they make up their own rules as they go along.

It's not a critisism of Christians per se. I just have never understood what that word means since it seems to be capable of meaning just about anything.


az

>Sorry, loup, but if a bunch of whackos call themselves Christian Knights then one must assume there is *something* Christian about what they believe.

It might not be - and probably isn't - what you consider a good Christian to be.<

I'm probably not what _they_ consider a good "Christian" to be either...

loup

<<...arbitrary selection of particular bits of the Bible and rejection of others.>>

Although arbitrary in respect of the Bible itself (pretty much by definition) such selections and rejections are not arbitrary in some absolute sense. They are not, in general, one might hope, arbitrary in respect of the particular Christian's other beliefs. Although we *do* then get back to the thorny question of what constitutes a belief system as "Christian".

Noggin

Thanks for the links, azahar. All I knew about the Klan, was from Eliza Steelwater's book. But it did seem odd that they attack Catholics and were called Christian!

Thank you, loup! They definitely are not Christian, and not everyone who calls themself Christian is - handsome is as handsome does, my Mum used to say, and the same thing applies with religion.

Blinky, I don't know what church you think I attend! I cycle between the Open Brethren and the Anglican church - what on did you think I went to?
I do not threaten violence and death on anyone, as you well know.
<>
They both call themselves Christians.

loup: I bet you eat shellfish and touch women who are unclean during their menstruation period, and fail to stone disobedient children or kill gays. By doing so you fail to uphold God's law as delivered through Moses. And Jesus himself reinforced the Old Testament by saying:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 5:18-19)

Assuming the earth still stands, the law of the Old Testament would still be in effect.

The moral of the story is this: just because you arbitrarily ignore certain parts of the Bible they value and you cherish ones they ignore doesn't mean you are any more or less Christian than the KKK.

>loup: I bet you eat shellfish and touch women who are unclean during their menstruation period, and fail to stone disobedient children or kill gays. By doing so you fail to uphold God's law as delivered through Moses. And Jesus himself reinforced the Old Testament by saying:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 5:18-19)<

Who is doing the "picking and choosing" _now_?!...


I see nothing in the Ten Commandments telling me to stone disobedient children or kill gays by the way...

"I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.


III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.


IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


V. Honour thy father and thy mother.

VI. Thou shalt not kill.

VII. Thou shalt not commit adultery.


VIII. Thou shalt not steal.


IX. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.


X. Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's."

, it's an abbreged version, but still...


That's being said, of course I break the commandments and Jesus' teaching on a regular basis, hence the "try to follow" bit in one of my posts...

And, yes, Jesus did insist on us following the Ten Commandments, but he didn't advocate violence [or murder] against those who don't as far as I know... His teaching was about love ["love thy neighbour"] and forgiveness, _not_ what the KKK stands for...

>The moral of the story is this: just because you arbitrarily ignore certain parts of the Bible they value and you cherish ones they ignore doesn't mean you are any more or less Christian than the KKK.<

I wouldn't if Jesus' teaching was about hating and murdering people, but it is not...



loup

Della, it doesnt matter which church you go to and Im not interested in which ones you do go to expcept that the fact that there *are* different ones defeats your argument such as it is.

There are different branches of christinanity as you have atested to. The KKK brand may not be one which you approve of but no matter what church you or anyone attends i could find you some other christian wh would say you or any other christian is not a christian.

So popes who sanction holy wars are still christians and Boer churches that preach that the segregation and subjegation of black africans is righteuos in the eyes of the bigG are just as much a christian as you.

PS have you forgotten your violent intentions towards the middle class mothers with screaming children in supermakets already Della

I can understand you have forgotten your death threat aimed at me as it was a while ago and I havent made mention of it for a few weeks. How forgetful of me not to give you the necessary reminders

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