h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

It is true that the catholic church did (and still do) many things that are against the Bible. But that is why there are so many different churches now.

You may be interested to know that the Bible doesn't teach about hell, that doctrine was made by the church.

And about religions causing a lot of fighting. Do you think it would significantly reduce the amount of fighting in the world if organised religion were banned? We are hoping that the worlds governments will realise this and try to ban religion, for such an action is what the Bible predicts will be the first sign of armageddon approaching.

I knew that the concept of hell was created by the church. That is one of the ridiculous ironies of the whole situation.

Nietzche predicted that sometime in the future a man(*) would be born. This man would eventually see reach a position of power (probably in the media as many Nietzche fans I know agree) where he will preach freedom, equality and the pursuit of knowledge and understnding. He would attack, conquer and eventually destroy all religious organisations for breaking such laws. He will remove indoctrination, bigotry, racism, crusades, holy wars and other horrifying atrocities from the world. He called this great and virtuous man "the antichrist."
Nietzche was an atheist not a satanist. He did not say this as a prophesy but more that he though it had to happen eventually. The Nietzchian antichrist is a heroic character who will free the masses from the fascist constricts of religion and enter a new age after the death of the old world.
I always think it's cool when different beleif systems seem to co-exist like this.
Please do not flame me for this as but I once had an extremely vivid dream that I was this man. It spooked me for days.

(*)Although Nietzche himself used the male gender, I guess this person could just as easily be a woman.

Thank you Della

Christian is an interesting label. I don't really care for labels much. You seem to have your own slant on things without the dogma that a lot of christians seem to espouse.

I ask because there are many christians that see non believers as being cast aside in the long run, despite a purity in many non believers than most christians.

I do believe in purity and I do believe that I am good. I'm not this way due to relgious reasons or promises of an afterlife. I'm this way because I choose to be and perhaps its in my nature. Its my honour and I can look in the mirror. I am good. No one judges it. Its the ultimate irony that those that believe in the greatness of 'god' could possibly believe that he would be so petty in denying someone like me that which they hold so dear - a place in heaven. Almost another self destroying theory. Could such a great and good 'god' be so petty?
Heaven might be a halfpipe , but I don't believe. I find a purity measured on belief and other artificial nonsence amongst christians incredibly silly. For they are then impure for they are not treating fellow man with the respect they are entitled to. Christian 'values' destroy themselves. There are a number of reasons why many christians would see me cast into the fires of hell. I do no harm to others or wish to, I do not cheat or lie, yet they would see me burn or cast aside. Judgement by christians is another self destroying ideology.


I don't understand your thoughts about not 'wanting' to meet god or have an afterlife. Its not an issue. Its not a case of not 'want' its irrelevent. I might ask a similar question, why do you need a god?

Many relgious people take comfort in the fact that god is there - its almost as if it make them not quite so insignificant. That in gods eyes believers count. That says more about man than it does about religion, but then what is god and religion if not a creation of man.

Finding comfort in trying to deny insignificance and percieved weakness?



I believe in the opposite. I believe in the insignificance of mankind. I know I am nothing but a spec in the universe. I know everyone else is the same. I look up and see the beauty of stars and sky, the world around me. I'm small. I know it. It feels good. It feels pure, it gives me a glow. Its all I need. It took me a long time to get here. Its the right place. My boyfriend says 'aetheism' is a cold place. Hes wrong, so wrong. Aetheism is a label and what you make it. I'm a believer, but its about me and my place in it all. Its so insignificant. I don't worry. Take a breath and breath it in. Feels so good. My true strength is pulled from that that is around me - and the fact that I can draw strength from it. Its me.

It all sounds like rubbish I know. It works for me. If religion works for you or anyone else thats fine. We just have different ways of thinking. As long as those can look inside themselves and not belittle or discriminate against others its great. Unfortunately religion doesn't lend itself very well to that. There seems to have to be some form of fear and negativity to make it all work. Sinners, the devil and evil. All very subjective in many forms of christianity.




Becky{L}

Thank you Della

Christian is an interesting label. I don't really care for labels much. You seem to have your own slant on things without the dogma that a lot of christians seem to espouse.

I ask because there are many christians that see non believers as being cast aside in the long run, despite a purity in many non believers than most christians.

I do believe in purity and I do believe that I am good. I'm not this way due to relgious reasons or promises of an afterlife. I'm this way because I choose to be and perhaps its in my nature. Its my honour and I can look in the mirror. I am good. No one judges it. Its the ultimate irony that those that believe in the greatness of 'god' could possibly believe that he would be so petty in denying someone like me that which they hold so dear - a place in heaven. Almost another self destroying theory. Could such a great and good 'god' be so petty?
Heaven might be a halfpipe , but I don't believe. I find a purity measured on belief and other artificial nonsence amongst christians incredibly silly. For they are then impure for they are not treating fellow man with the respect they are entitled to. Christian 'values' destroy themselves. There are a number of reasons why many christians would see me cast into the fires of hell. I do no harm to others or wish to, I do not cheat or lie, yet they would see me burn or cast aside. Judgement by christians is another self destroying ideology.


I don't understand your thoughts about not 'wanting' to meet god or have an afterlife. Its not an issue. Its not a case of not 'want' its irrelevent. I might ask a similar question, why do you need a god?

Many relgious people take comfort in the fact that god is there - its almost as if it make them not quite so insignificant. That in gods eyes believers count. That says more about man than it does about religion, but then what is god and religion if not a creation of man.

Finding comfort in trying to deny insignificance and percieved weakness?



I believe in the opposite. I believe in the insignificance of mankind. I know I am nothing but a spec in the universe. I know everyone else is the same. I look up and see the beauty of stars and sky, the world around me. I'm small. I know it. It feels good. It feels pure, it gives me a glow. Its all I need. It took me a long time to get here. Its the right place. My boyfriend says 'aetheism' is a cold place. Hes wrong, so wrong. Aetheism is a label and what you make it. I'm a believer, but its about me and my place in it all. Its so insignificant. I don't worry. Take a breath and breath it in. Feels so good. My true strength is pulled from that that is around me - and the fact that I can draw strength from it. Its me.

It all sounds like rubbish I know. It works for me. If religion works for you or anyone else thats fine. We just have different ways of thinking. As long as those can look inside themselves and not belittle or discriminate against others its great. Unfortunately religion doesn't lend itself very well to that. There seems to have to be some form of fear and negativity to make it all work. Sinners, the devil and evil. All very subjective in many forms of christianity.




Becky{L}

You should look into the flood of Noahs day sometime! There are loads of legends from around the world involving floods, with 8 people being rescued in a boat. In fact, in one hieroglyphic language, the word for flood is a picture of 8 stick people in a boat.

Um, the end of the ice age perhaps, carried on in story and myth?

Just a thought...

I'd like to recommend another book: "Going By the Book", by an American former preacher called Ernie Brocas. He goes too far in conceding 'territory' for my taste, but his point is that 'bibliolatry' - putting the Bible (or an interpretation of it) before people, is just plain WRONG! In his section on the Inquisition, he quotes someone as saying that (he) "thought it impossible to ever be happy again" after reading about the sort of thing the unspeakable perpetrators did.

It is my firm belief that they were not really believers at all, that their aim was political power. (Inquisitors). In defence of the present day Catholic church, I would just like to say that the 'toll' of witches etc., was never in the tens of millions (the figure usually quoted), though I realise that in a case like this,numbers don't matter. Whether victims number 10, 100, or 10,000 doesn't lessen the crime at all!

My 15 year old is very cynical about Christianity partly because he's come up against an appalling level of self-righteous smugnessamong believers he has met. I know what he means, and it's totally un-Christian - no believer is entitled to consider him/herself better than anyone else, believer or not!

You ask, Becky(L) why I 'need' a god...well, as I said in outlining my history, I am sure that I 'knew' about God before the idea of 'need' ever entered my head! What I mean is, I was under 5 yo, and a child of four or so,'needs' her Mum and Dad, siblings, food, drink, shelter, entertainment - she doesn't have any more sophisticated idea than that...

No, I 'need' God, because God is the 'ground of my being' as Martin Buber would probably put it. You mention giving 'man' significance, and that you don't mind being an insignificant speck. Fact is, you're not such a thing! You are of infinite value, to yourself, your family, possibly your boyfriend (I don't know how close or casual you may be...) Have you heard Moby's latest disc ("We Are All Made of Stars"?.) Scientifically, we are, as elements from stars have been recycled to make everything on earth.

The universe is magnificent and awesome and I happen to believe that so are the people that live in it - human or otherwise!

In my view, every individual person is equally insignificant and mainly useless in the grand scheme of the universe, the planets, the stars and all infinity. However every person is equally vital and important to human society. I take on the humanist view that despite that we cannot affect the universe, we can affect the lives of others and that is all the significance and importance we should ever need.

As for the Noah/Ark story. I heard a while ago that there was scientific evidence that a giant flood happened around the time of the bibical one. However, where the bible described it as encompassing the whole world, this flood (although still one of the largest in history) only sank a large area of the middle east. It was implied that this was the same flood described in the bible (and Torah) but that to the Israelis of the time, this area compromised all of the "known world." We must remember that even if you beleive that these holy books are the word of God, they were still written by men.

Della was quoted saying that you could not have "needed" God at such a young age. I avoided the arguments on why people created god before as many religious people I have argued with find it very offensive. However most of the needs that God supplies are the basic ones that we have from infancy. God becomes the eternal parent. By basic Freud we see the parents (specifically the mother) as the major influence on childhood personality and beliefs. God is a comfort as it gives the needs that a parent does (watching over, protecting, teaching, judging etc.) even when not physically present. Your parents are not always there to watch over you, but God will never leave your side. If you haven't already, I'd suggest you read "How to be God" by George Mikes, an interesting if slightly random collection of essays on morality and religion. Throughout the whole book Mikes refers to god in the feminine as he sees "her" as a mother replacement. The reason that god was considered male, supposes Mikes, was simply blatant chauvanism by the men who started the religions.

Hi again Della

Yes your need is the 'ground of your being'. Pretty much why the idea of 'meeting' god isn't important to me and many others.

Its funny that my description of my insignificance is interpreted as a I having a lack of self worth and value. Almost as if you pity me. In fact I cherish my value, but its about me, that I value myself. My significance in the scheme of the universe is small. Its not even a question of not worrying, its true. Does belief in insignificance imply a lack of self worth? Or are your religous beliefs convincing you that it will make me feel more self worth because god loves and cares? Make me feel better? Percieved weakness?


To myself I am very precious and the greatest gift I can give to anyone is myself. It must be respected though. Given twice - now my bfs to be true - I belong and I'm respected, for he respects his property. I wonder what you're thinking right now having read that? Is it 'thats ok?' or is it those judegmental thoughts. Stop and think. I'd like to think its 'thats ok' and that there is a complete acceptance. I hope so, for it means you aren't bound.

My honour is my leash
His command simply binds.....{L}

... such a gift and belief

My mum knows too. She now believes. It doesn't take too long to realise why.

I'm sorry if I seem to talk in riddles. I don't like to spell it out for its more than words can say.



I always liked paul hogans - 'fleas on a dog'. I'm not too well read on philosphy and such, but in one statement he captures mans preoccupation of himself in the universe. A universe so vast and wonderous that accepting ones insignificance as a part of it brings you to the heart of who we are. I feel part of it and I know that big or small, rich or poor everyone else is too. A small insignifant part tis true, but of one. I'm not sure where god fits into that other than a method to give man something to grasp. An artificially induced spirituality. Do we need it? Some do, but why do I and others have it without?

The 'ground of my being' is what I see all around me and absolute unshakeable knowledge that I am good. Maybe its an arrogance of sorts, but if I don't believe then whats the point.

Perhaps I do believe in god. Perhaps everything that I feel and find so enriching is god. I might be mistaken. I can accept that and my own fallibilty for what does it matter? Interpretation is the only discrepancy. Likewise you could be mistaken also - for both our views are the creations of our own. Creations of man? Free will? The ultimate denial.


even more rubbish I know (but I don't really believe that ..otherwise) .... but I've said this to others... 'take what you wish and mould it to your own' - to be yourself. Sounds a bit like some peoples religious beliefs.... eeek! :O)



Becky{L}

Hi cyclops

Childhood is at the heart of very many pychiatrists diagnosis.

The notion that some of childhood persists in 'adult' life is the seen as a fault in development. I'm not sure I believe that. The idea we disgard the needs of childhood is a fallacy. The needs just develop into something different. A 'properly' developed adult will seemingly have no 'childish' needs. I see that as nonsence. Often the stigma of some of those needs amid society will mean that they become hidden or repressed.



I think the 'child' is still in all of us. It develops yes, but fundamentally we do not change. I think traditional measures of childhood and adulthood are incorrect. The moment we become self aware is the significant point, the time we can really look inside ourselves and see whats there, what makes us tick. Sadly for some I don't think it ever happens. Please forgive the religious connotations but many do not see the light. Its not a religious thing is a people thing. Contentedness.

Religion for some is extension of that self awareness, in childhood religion is often a dogma and for many in adulthood it remains that way too. I think the distinction to draw is those that see religion in terms of themselves, not what is foisted upon them. Perhaps religion is the wrong word - I prefer sprituality. I don't think it has any more or any less value inside or outside religion, traditional or otherwise. If religion provides a path to that place of contendedness that is a wonderful thing. I see it being meerly a path or perhaps a tool to true self enlightenment (yeuk did I really just write that! ;O)


Religion and god encompass too much. The labels and the symbolism shouldn't be what its about. There is a lot of good in religious teaching, but a lot of negatives too. Children of god or children of the universe we should form our own views, moulding it from others perhaps, but not following. Life of brian is very profound.

I've seen a few shrinks (judge me if you dare!) and unlike most people who see a shrink looking for answers I'd already found mine. I was surprised at the shallowness of their approach. In their eyes I have a paraphilia. I do not regard it as such. I regard my needs and beliefs as the manifestation and development of my childhood needs. I think the same needs are in all of us. We just go different ways to cope and to find our answers. In true h2g2 style mine is 42. Doesn't that signify it all? It does. Nothing could be more clear. The clarity of what you make it. Religion is a help to some, but its not the answer. The answer is 42 - if you think that I'm trying to be funny or flippant, then the whole message is lost.



Becky{L}

Quickly becoming very boring ... I know...
We sit and talk like this occasionally (well quite often actually) we really do.....

I have said that I am an atheist. This means that I do not beleive in god. I have never said that I was not religious. I have very recently started to find beleif in reincarnation as well as buddhist and wiccan philosophies. This is my spirituality and I understand perfectly your opinion of insignificance. This is what I beleive.

As for the "inner" child. In my opinion, adolescence is when we are young and immature, trying as hard as we can to become adults, trying to kill childish feelings and needs and trying to become proper members of society by copying the dogmas and prejudices of others. Adulthood is when we accept that we will always be children and start to follow our own path without caring about the false teachings of the world. Sadly most people never fully mature into adults and die as very young geriatrics, not able to comprehend what is happening to them.
I am only 18 but sometimes I feel very old, especially when talking to 20+'s much younger than myself.
A few days ago I was talking to a girl who believed in reincarnation. From talking to me and reading my hand she supposedly could tell how long I've been on the Earth. Her first reaction was "God, you're ancient! You're almost as old as me!"

Most people I meet are new to the world.

First problem with what you say, Cyclops, is that I loathe and *abominate* Freud's doctrines and belief systems! (I nearly said I loathe Freud, but I of course I never met the man, he may have been perfectly charming, tho' I gather he wasn't.)

In light of that, I am not persuaded by his (to me, utterly skewed) view of human development. He believed in the *Oedipus Complex* for goodness' sake!

I'm not saying I didn't need God at 4 y.o., just that I can't figure out why I would have invented the concept back then, and I remain convinced that you state it the wrong way round. God created people, people didn't create God (however S/he did it isn't relevant.)

Becky(L), hi,I am very sorry that you thought I was pitying you, and accusing you of a lack of self-esteem! I certainly didn't mean to come across that way.

I am sure your relationship with your boyfriend would seem rather strange if you were to explain it fully. (You have hinted enough to that effect.)I admit it's hard for me not to be a micron judgemental, because aside from anything else, I am a feminist, and I wonder when a woman gives herself as 'property', if the man as worthy as she thinks him to be... (I really hope I am not offending you, this is hard...)

When you stand on the front lawn and look at the night sky... spin around, get dizzy, mutter 'infinity', as I used to do when I was about 13 and putting out the milk bottles - it's easy to get to feeling that 'man' *is* just insignificant - an ant crawling on the side of the pulpit, as Leslie Weatherhead put it in one of his essays. I always thought most atheists (maybe those who are also humanists) had a very high opinion of 'man'! I'm thinking of something from Shakespeare which begins "What a piece of work is man"...My point is, that as a 13 year old out on the lawn at night, I'd think of the Star Trek episode I'd just seen, tell myself we'd be out there soon, with infinity to look at and enjoy and explore. Because that's one of the things God made us for. That's my view.

Funny, Cyclops, I was in the middle of a reply to you, (about reincarnation and 'old souls') when along came a power cut and a crash!

Back up, I'll try to say - I do believe in reincarnation - and what I was going to say, is, it *is* possible to tell if someone is 'old', or relatively' new'! Maybe the happy people are new, and bitter and cynical are old. Where that puts me (I am bitter and cynical, and I am also a happy optimist) I don't know.

Hey ho,

Sorry if I offended anyone by saying "when man created god" as if this is definate fact but I don't get offended when people say "when God/Allah/Jehovah etc. created man" as if fact so I didn't see any problem there. Sorry.

I agree that Freudian theory has a lot to be desired but a lot of was important revolutionary thought and a lot of post-Freudian theories have much more grounding. Freud tried to explain extremely complicated complexes in too simple a manner (eg. Oedipus complex) which ended up making the whole thing just sound silly and ridiculous.

With the whole old/new soul thing. I'm actually surprisingly happy right now. I just see myself as older as I have learned to enjoy the world as it is without pretending that it is better than it is. Every day I see other students who seem to think that they can singlehandedly solve all the problems in Ireland and the Middle East, of Third World Debt and terminal illnesses etc. even though (or maybe because) they know very little about any of these subjects. I doubt any of these things will be solved in our lifetime and even if they are it will not be done by a couple of teenagers lying in front of cars in another continent. I shouldn't complain as this shows the charity of humanity but it is only one step away from the same sort of dogma that starts fascism. I come from a Jewish family and am currently terrified that I am going to get jumped by some lunatic who blames me for the situation in Israel.
I might be cynical but it doesn't mean I can't be optimistic. The world is improving but in small ways. If we all make an effort to just be better, nicer people it does a surprising amount.

PS. Are there two people writing under the name "Della the Cat woman." This is kinda confusing me cos' I don't know who I'm replying to.

Hiya Della

I wrote in your home space about the things that arent so relevent here.

Your view is fine. Whatever works for you. Mine works for me. You're content (or I'd hope so) so thats great. Not so much the method, but the results. As long as no one is a target, no one gets hurt - what could be better.

It is a fantastic world we live in. If only humanity could get rid of it uglyness. Its what drags us down.

One thing I also believe is the coming out of a rut. Mankind does get stuck in ruts. Although I believe in insignificance - I think that belief makes even more precious our endeavours. The greatness might be relative, but there is no reason not to better ourselves. It means so much more.

Oh yes... please don't be offended my the 'man' and 'mankind' - I used the terms as a description of the race. (nothing to do with any kind of silly PC negativity or otherwise).


Becky{L}

Apparently, there are two of us, but I am the one and only original, and the only Della on this thread is and always has been me! I haven't even found the space where the other one lives, but a friend of mine did and was confused.

I am sorry, Cyclops, that you feel worried about anti-semites. People like my son Jimmy, over-react (what can I say, he's a kid) and news about Palestine starts him ranting about Jews. Believe me, he gets his backside kicked (metaphorically) when he starts ranting, tho' he is right about the Palestinians. So am I, of course.

BTW, the 'other' Della, apparently is Jewish!

Truth based on what. If you want to persuade someone, which is why you posted your message, then the burdon of proof is on you. Unless you have concrete evidence, your relying on opinion. Therefor your truth is your opinion. If you think god, jesus, and all things religous work as opinions i support you in having that opinion. When you have facts and proof, then stick your neck out.

There is not, and cannot be *concrete* evidence, but there *is* evidence. I'll leave the details of same, to others who are more knowledgeable than I am... unless asked specifically!