h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

You're quite capable of making a case for many sides of an argument, Ed, and I'm sure your input enriches the threads in which you participate.

I just cannot believe you sincerely mean everything you've
posted over the years. Had I the time, I'd show you a few examples of your 'playfulness'.

I believe it *at the time*.

Well, I'm pretty sure you're not "insane", but I must say that the Hoo I know would have advanced a far better argument than that.

I've been thinking about this, as to begin with I thought 'It doesn't interest me, they make themselves look a prat, so what.'

But since reading all the different arguments I have thought a bit more about it. Now, I think unless dressing in the uniform of one of these types of hateful regimes is purely for the purpose of professional entertainment eg historical drama or comedic purposes, I think that I agree with a blanket ban.

If someone has stupid friends, then being seen in public with such shows a distinct lack of political nous.

I've also given it some more thought, and I'm in two minds about it. On the one hand, the guy's a politician, so he should know better.

But on the other - this is, presumably, one of his closest friends we're talking about. Our man is one of a dozen on a stag do.

Now... if YOU were on a stag do with one of your closest friends and they did something... questionable - would you be the one to stand up and say "No - this is not acceptable behaviour!" and refuse to be seen with them?

I don't know this man. I don't know how wedded he was to his immediate future in politics. But I'm finding it hard to hold it against him that his didn't cast a party-pooping pall over the stag night of one of his best friends, just for the sake of his own career.

Frankly, if the Daily Fail reported that a Tory MP had walked out on one of his best friends on his stag do simply because he (the MP) was afraid of getting photographed involved in shenanigans, I'd have less respect for him than I do for this chap. (Which is not much, admittedly, he is a Tory when all said and done.)

I think this is my point, he is probably a prat. If you choose to be a politician there is often a case for making a choice between your professional life and that of your friendships. Maybe it's the price you should pay?

Well by analogy let's take my trousers-dropped-and-lewd-thrusting-in-the-restaurant example, SoRB. Just how good and how old a friend does he have to be and for how long do you let him wave his genitals around before you take him aside and tell him sternly that he is making a scene and being offensive to the staff and other members of the public?

If you happily spend the evening in the company of an old and dear friend who is waving his genitals for a whole evening around in public without trying to stop him, I think people might justifiably ask what planet you're on, never mind whether you're fit for office.

Delete 'waving genitals' insert 'wearing a Nazi uniform'.

Did he actually only put the uniform on after he'd been drinking, by the way?

Frankly, I don't think the "waving genitals" analogy works. For one thing, that appears to be precisely what the rugby union team at my university did most weekends, and it never seemed to cause any major problems... other than the team being banned from returning to Edinburgh university after one of their number appeared naked in a hotel lobby and defecated in an ashtray. But that aside, I'm aware that public genital display appears to be something men of a certain ilk are wont to do, rather more often and rather more publicly than we might consider fitting. None of my personal friends ever engaged in this activity, what with most of my friends being adherents to the code of League rather than union, so the issue of asking them to stop never came up, as it were.

It appears that the Nazi uniform was a stag-do stunt. It *appears* our hero the Tory boy actually paid for the hire of said uniform for the groom's use, and that wearing it in public in France on his stag do was part of the traditional attempts to publicly humiliate the groom, in much the same way, I imagine, as one of my best friends was required to pursue a monopoly-board pub-crawl round London while wearing a large ladies bra and a thong over his clothes and a floppy hat. I suspect, therefore, that the friends hatched this scheme in the cold light of day and the groom was required to don the uniform before the commencement of the evening's amusements.

I'm put in mind of the Top Gear team painting inflammatory things on the side of each other's cars when travelling throught the southern USA, things like "Man Love Rules OK". They were somewhat surprised that this provoked rather more than the wry smiles and appalled tutting such activity would provoke in England. Not for the first time, Englishmen abroad are surprised for some reason that people abroad don't act like Englishmen.

They start at Calais, you know.

oh, so its the old boys will be boys thing then?

Why is it this particular uniform should be so offensive, when to dress up as Stalin, who's reckoned to have murdered 20 million, wouldn't bother a soul? Or what about Chairman Mao, responsible for an estimated 40 to 70 million deaths? It's inconsistent to demonise the nazi uniform to such an extent.

Stalin and Mao didn't do anything directly to the French. The Nazis kind of did.

What - beat them in a war? Who *hasn't* done that?

"its the old boys will be boys thing then?"

Well, up to a point, yes, it's exactly that. Nobody got hurt. No kittens were eaten. A posh man wore a comedy Nazi uniform (apparently) hired from a fancy dress shop.

Here's an interesting article from the Guardian from almost exactly a year ago, funnily enough. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/13/japan-hitler-outfit-past

Specifically interesting is the journalist's suggestion that, and I quote:
"most of us are aware that actually dressing like a Nazi foot soldier moves from the comedic into the farcical, but only making a joke of oneself in the process"

And:

"To be sure Nazis can be funny, but there is also a very fine line between clever and stupid. Watching a Nazi make an arse of himself is comedic, but being a Nazi just makes an arse of oneself "

It's a long-standing tradition in this country that the job of the revellers at a stag party is to ensure that, on the night, the groom is made to look as much of an arse as possible. And they appear to have succeeded in this endeavour. In the politician's position, I think I'd have tried to brazen it out on that basis. It wouldn't have worked, but it would have looked better than craven apologies to Jewish groups who weren't in the ski resort that night.

>>Stalin and Mao didn't do anything directly to the French.

Yes, understandable in this particular case, especially since the French might still be sensitive about Vichy France; but in general, and in the UK, we demonise the nazi uniforms far more than those of other disgusting regimes. My great uncle died in literally unspeakable conditions (my uncle cannot talk about it) in a Japanese PoW camp, but a Japanese uniform isn't frowned upon. Indeed, a banzai headband was innocuously fashionable recently.

The Nazi uniform was kind of deliberately designed to look highly distinctive too.
I suspect if many people tried to dress like chairman Mau or Stalin they'd probably get mistaken for trying to be Uncle Fester.

Say what you like about the Nazis, but you can't deny they had good designers. (Didn't Bryan Ferry get into a lot of trouble for saying that a few year ago? And if so... why?)

Indeed - designed by Hugo Boss.

Google google - in 2007 Ferry commented approvingly in an interview about Nazi iconography from an art history perspective (not unnaturally as fine art graduate).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6561177.stm

And needless to say the story is rounded out with a couple of Jewish rentaquotes darkly concluding "I hope that he will never make the same mistake again."

Just noticed the subject line's been changed.

Bit of a dumb question, imo. The answer is "No. Duh."

You go to a foreign country, inhabited by y'know, foreigners, then you abide by their laws. You might, when you get back home, engage in some debate about whether those laws are justified... but they're THEIR laws. And I don't take the Pop Will Eat Itself/Prodigy line on such matters.

The more pertinent question is - should people be allowed to associate with people who are wearing illegal costumes? I've made my position clear...