h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Out of interest, what are your non-physical criteria for 'maturity'?

(I'm presuming something here, so please correct me if I'm reading too much into your statement.) It is currently popular (and maybe even de rigeur) to say that by and large men are immature and women aren't. Your comment (even if it was in jest) appears to come from this tradition. You seem to be saying that men only mature physically, and implying that women mature both physically and in some other respects too. I'm intruiged to know what you meant.

*pouts in corner, sulking about being accused of immaturity*

Merely a joke. If anyone seriously tries to tell me that 'immature man' is tautological, then I don't think I really want to know them.

It's a right bugger this writing things down isn't it? No-one can tell how you mean things. See postings above for an illustration of this.

Now, you see, that last sentence could be construed as me having a pop at Fragilis the Melodical, but I wasn't. I was just using that as an illustration of how easy it is to upset someone in writing when that is the last thing on your mind.

I think the acceptance of the immaturity bit is passive, because I certainly can't be arsed to go around 'proving' that I'm mature. If someone thinks I'm immature, then so be it. As long as those dear to me don't think so, or don't mind if I am, then that's good enough for me.

(in response to Dinsdale Piranha)

I'm glad you weren't *trying* to reflect me poorly. One's intentions are important. A temporary inability to hear yourself from another person's point of view is entirely understandable -- especially in the early morning! I was rather harsh in response, and I'd say you've paid your dues. Can we forgive each other and move on?

So why do I have more male friends? (Returning to a previous discussion) I dislike people who act less intelligent than they really are, especially when they are doing this for social gains. That's one piece of the puzzle.

I also dislike people who gossip behind other's backs, but won't confront them face-to-face. Women seem to do this more than men.

I would guess both these behaviors are socially learned. I know when I was a child, I discovered that boys can often get what by asking where girls must be more often be sneaky to win parental approval. I did some study on gender theory in my early adulthood, and I abandoned these behaviors because I came to understand how they are self-defeating as an adult. I would guess most women don't bother with this.

I also have hobbies that are dominated by men, and that's another large part of it. I am a computer and internet addict, love roleplaying games, and enjoy reading and watching science fiction. My boyfriend is even turning me on to comic books, and we now spend an inordinate amount of time in a geek shop where there are only two regular female customers. To guess, this probably has something to do with the tendency of American educators and parents to encourage boys' interest in science and math while discouraging girls. Most of my interests have a passing relation to math/science. I was put in a math and science fast-track starting in the fourth grade, so perhaps that explains it.

I do feel a little uncomfortable at that shop sometimes. For example, there is only one restroom, the toilet seat is always up, and there's a large poster of Sarah Michelle Gellar in leather hanging at eye-level. But at least it's clean. In general, the people there are honest and intelligent. If they lack a little in social skills, they are exceptionally earnest. Most importantly, everyone there understands what I'm talking about most of the time.

I have some female friends who have similar interests, but they are simply fewer. I met many of them on the internet.

I do know quite a few girls who are quite 'bitchy', which I don't like. But don't men do that too? It's one of the things I've noticed here in London that's very similar to back in the States.

I noticed that the recent film MI-2, which I admit I enjoyed, has only one female character who is given a very stereotyped character. There are also some cutting remarks about women. But I still liked the film. Perhaps at my age I'm beyond caring.

It may be 'merely a joke', and I understood that, but this doesn't change the fact that there are some underlying assumptions beneath it. I think it's very interesting to examine what they are.

Whilst most people would probably claim not to think that 'immature man' is a tautology when they're being serious, they're simply rejecting the most extreme version of the idea. But I think a *lot* of people go along with the factoid that men mature more slowly than women, and that they always retain some immature behaviour.

I was hoping someone would come up with some examples of why they think men are immature so we could talk about it. But since nobody has, I'll pick my own example!

Consider that hackneyed old phrase 'boys and their toys' that people wheel out disdainfully when they can't be bothered to think. The underlying message usually seems to be 'men still get enjoyment out of toy-like things, therefore men are somewhat immature'. I think there's an equally valid characterisation which is not so anti-male: 'most men have not lost the capacity to get an innocent and simple enjoyment from certain gadgets and devices; a minor tragedy of modern life is that women feel compelled to crush this part of their personality as a rite of passage because they inexplicably view this repressive act denial as a sign of maturity'...

One example, maybe, my g/f just called to say how annoyed she was that some of her male coworkers seemed to be blowing off a job proposal that she had worked very hard to submit (she's her firm's mktg director). She felt affronted that these people had very high standards that this job (which the company, she feels, is well-suited for) did not match. They didn't feel that the job was worth their while. I suppose this kind of short-term nitpicking could be termed immature behavior.

If you are someone who truly craves power, you can get it, but it's also true that you can become subservient to it. As for separating sex appeal and power, here's what comes to mind:
In entertainment there are few more powerful people than Madonna, whose status as a marketing/self-promotion genius is often overlooked. Which is just how she wanted it, right? You start with this 'trollop'
image and set about grossing $40 million a year for a decade by:
ATTRACTING ATTENTION TO YOURSELF!
The downside of this phenomenon is that, in our media anyway, there is far more about Britney's Spheres than her music. Still, she is famous and also powerful.
Her genre of bubblegum/dance tunes has a dozen different acts with a dozen different videos which are all nothing more than booty-wigglin' and implant shakin'. Trouble is the biggest fans are 8-year old girls...
and so back to the self-image development issue.
p.s. boy-band clones aren't about music; it isn't only women. I can't prove they've had implants, either.
PLT, Mick.

Last night I had a gig and this one girl had a fabulous pair of Doctoral Degrees. She was flaunting them, too, waving them about... from the stage you could see everything... shameless hussy.
cheers

on the subject of male/female friendship, i can also say that most of my very best friends are males. i prefer the friendship of males, because their personalities usually suit me more than most females. i'm sure i can honestly say that i wouldn't consider an "intimate relationship" with them, and i'm positive they would agree--an issue that has nothing at all to do with our respective levels of attractiveness.

it's not that i want to be a man, or "one of the boys." it's that i don't have much in common with many other females. i have one close female friend, and that's about it. she's awesome.

Hi Fragilis. We certainly can forgive each other/agree to differ. It might be that our differences are more to do with our nationalities than our gender (I'm assuming from your postings that you're an American woman, whereas I'm an English man).

I'm not sure that men are less bitchy than women, but then I've never been present when women are talking among themselves. I have to base my opinion on listening to male-only talks and male/female talks. It could well be that women have conversations of an entirley different nature when there aren't any men about. I know I wouldn't _dream_ of having a men-only-type chat if there was a woman present - it would let her know how disgusting we really are

Hi to IanG now.

"a minor tragedy of modern life is that women feel compelled to crush this part of their personality as a rite of passage because they inexplicably view this repressive act of denial as a sign of maturity..."

Yeah, sounds good. I don't think I'll ever get the chance to advance that as an argument, though. In my experience, the immaurity thing only surfaces during a 'toilet seat up' kind of flaming session, and trying to say that men aren't the scum of the Earth in any way will result in hoots of derision.

While it is true that the overwhelming majority of train spotters are male, I would point out that the overwhelming majority of Barry Manilow fans are women, proving that it's not only men that can get silly over something which is completely inexplicable.

Perhaps the 'boys and their toys' thing comes from the fact that it seems men are more easily impressed by technology's achievements than women, who tend to see it more as a means to an end. Thus, the men want to know how it's done and like to show off to their mates about how much their car/hi-fi/PC can do. In Microserfs by Douglas Coupland, the theory is advanced that the Mac is a 'woman's' computer whereas the Windows PC is 'male': the Mac is supposed to be more intuitive - you plug it in and it works, but the PC needs lots of 'getting your hands dirty' and tweaking to make it run properly. Of course, this doesn't explain why hardly anyone, male or female, buys Macs.

Yes, I'm an American woman. I have many male English friends, and I haven't had this disagreement with any of them. But I'm sure there are good reasons for our disagreement that we simply understand from this distance.

Women do speak differently when men are around. I've heard all types of conversations, because occasionally male friends will drop their guard around me and speak like they would if I were male. (Does that make sense? ) Men can be crude, but you really have to experience the backstabbing of women's gossip sometime. Or rather, try not to.

About the Mac vs. PC debate, the reason people don't buy Macs is that they continue to have fewer options regarding hardware and software. If you can't get a computer to do something you need it to do, why buy it? And anyway, they remain incompatible in some ways and this can be burdensome for Mac users. They are making a comeback, though.

Now isn't that strange, I'm an American living in London using a Mac!

Though there are many differences between Americans and the English, the relationships between men and women are very similar. Some of the best intentioned, nicest women and men say much about equality and mutual respect, but I can't help thinking that a lot of effort goes into highlighting differences and maintaining traditional roles, albeit in sometimes subtle ways.

This isn't my computer I'm using, I'd like to say. It doesn't seem to matter much on the internet whether it's a Mac or PC, just how old it is. You don't see so many Macs in London compared with the US. Some men find women who like using computers 'un-feminine'. It's like they want to talk about computers and soccer and stuff with their male friends, but they expect not to talk about it at all with their female friends.

Hey, anyone who wants to take me to task for generalizing, go right ahead. I've been teased mercilessly this morning for being a 'Yank', so I'm in a generalization mood.

I'm not surprised, if you keep referring to football as 'soccer'!

Are you from the Southern US as well? If so, you must _really_ like being called a Yank.

Dear ellencherry,

Sorry, I haven't read all the responses you've gotten here, so I may be repeating them, but I thought I'd throw in my observations.

Being a woman myself, I have certainly had my fair share of trouble with the whole gender issue. I'm going into Computer Science at college -- which happens to be a VERY male-dominated field -- so I understand what you mean by my intelligence being regarded as a "novelty".

Sure, I'm not ultra-feminist, but, like you, I just want to be able to do my own thing in this world without being seen as an object (and a stupid, mood-driven object at that). Unfortunately for us, most men (to generalize and stereo-type) are driven by their hormones and their egos. The stereo-types they have about us women stem from years of women letting men have their way, and now they're having a hard time letting go of it. The best I've figured I can do is forge ahead in my field and not worry if they misunderstand me, patronize me or ignore me. Once they get to know me, they'll realize they made a mistake.

Yes, I think a lot of your feelings on this subject stem from immature man. Unfortunately, 99.9% of men fall into this category. I've been fortunate enough to meet one or two men that don't, and they are rare and precious gems. Hang in there! They are worth it in the end!

-Gena

The main connection between football and soccer is that it's very much a 'men' thing, no matter how much women may want to play or watch!

Without being too specific, I come from the middle bit of the US. But I think English people consider all Americans to be Yanks.

Looking back over this thread, it seems we're all so deeply affected by stereotyping and generalizations, that for women *and* men to move forward into a world where power is not subject to gender - well, it's going to be an uphill struggle, as we say in the US.

Maybe it's just not possible. *sigh*

Hi Kaeori. Nice to see you again.

I think the main connection between football and soccer is that they're the same thing! (Although I hate the word 'soccer' - see the British English forum for more details).

And you're right, 'Yank' is a word we English use for a citizen of the USA, no matter where in that country they're from.