h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

For what it's worth, I have found that men *and* women take me much more for what I am simply because I'm neither attractive nor desirable.

I don't waste time on make-up (I would have to spread it on pretty thick), and I hate revealing or 'sexy' clothes.

Then again, I've never been in a position of power, nor have I tried to attain one.

Interestingly, one of the most assertive girls I know is a convert to Islam. She wears the full Islamic gear. She's very confident. Perhaps part of the reason she is so self-assured is because she trains in a martial art at the same place as me - only she's much, much better. She explains it as "a little surprise I'm keeping just in case someone gets too curious about what's under my hijab!"

Well, as DP notes, being ultrafeminine is just a routine. I feel that it is often difficult to assert yourself intellectually or passionately to someone you care for because it is very natural to be afraid of a negative response. I think that all people (men, too) pretend to be less bright and less passionate (more average, in other words) when they first meet someone because they don't want to be rejected outright. It's after a couple of dates that you start to open up a little.

I remember I went on a second date once with a hardline right-wing woman and all she talked about was giving parents vouchers so that their kids could attend private schools. I was a little bit diffident about the subject (and I didn't agree), so I responded in generalities; I was hoping that she would reveal more about her personality. I never saw or heard from her again. A pal told me later that she *was* revealing her deep interests in this conversation and that I had proven myself to be insufficiently interested in the things that she was passionate about.

Now if we had started with the fluffy-puppy routine and moved deeper, we might have gotten more comfortable with each other and I would have been more interested in school vouchers. As it turns out, I met someone else even more complicated and demanding the next month, deliberately tried to live up to her expectations, and we're still together six months along.

no, from what i hear, you're not strange in not liking feeble women. my best friend (male) states that he has always found powerful women, or women in higher authoratative positions highly erotic, as well as respectful...while timid women disgust him, and seem to him more of a "chore."

it's not so much an attraction to immature men...i refer mainly to friendships with men, and in observing their viewpoints. while i enjoy intellectualism, i am all for a point when you lay the books down and go have a little fun. this quality seems to exist mainly in younger men, which, unfortunately includes a little immaturity.

it may also have to do with the fact that i am a female in the military, and although the men respect the women officers and nco's, there's always a question of them trying to catch a glimpse of their breasts as they lean over, or something of the sort. so i was curious if the respect part of it was simply a charade, you know?

very much agreed. ani difranco (to quote a musician) says it's "being a kitten stuck up a tree somewhere." that's irritating when you're a female and other females act this way. it angers be, because of the whole self-respect issue. who told women this worked?

that's awesome!

Men may not like the "dumb and helpless" routine, but from my (extensive) experience I have found that nothing puts a man off more than a woman who, on meeting him, tries to impress him with her intellect (or worse still, makes it obvious she is far more intelligent than he is). Men see this as some sort of attempt by the woman to assert her equality etc. from the outset and generally leg-it at that point.

We all have pre-conceived ideas of how we expect people to be (i.e. dumb blondes) and where women have the real power is in exploiting these pre-conceptions to their advantage. In business, paticularly in a courtroom for instance, men are quite happy to assume a woman is of average intelligence or even stupid until she shows something to the contrary - by then it is all too late. Women, however, generally assume a man is intelligent until shown otherwise.

Powerful women are those who have a man's ruthless ambition and desire for power, but who, whilst working their way to the top use their femininity to their advantage. Believe it or not, Margaret Thatcher was a good example of this. She had so many Tory MP's fawning over her, she was able to manipulate them in a way no male PM ever could.

I would only be put off by a woman who tried to impress me with her intellect because that seems a bit desperate. I doubt if I would like anyone, male or female, who made it obvious that they were more intelligent than I am, because this seems to me to be contemptuous and have a bit of the 'you're not worth bothering with because you're sooooo stupid' about it.

I personally like it when I'm treated as an equal, but I don't like the sort of agressive 'I'm your equal and what are you going to do about it?' attitude (picky, or what? ). I'm as susceptible as the next man to a bit of emotional manipulation, but at the same time it annys me that I am, so it can be a double-edged sword when used on me.

Could it be that there isn't ever going to be a comfortable way for men and women to interact outside family relationships?

When the girls get together we behave quite differently than if there was even one man present. Same *must* be true for the boys.

A close friend of mine runs a busy office with a number of male employees. She can be quite ruthless, and I have heard on more than one occasion the men in the office putting her down behind her back, saying she thinks she's a man. If it's supposed to be an insult, what does it say about the one who says it?

Why do men feel so threatened by women exercising power? Is it something deep inside the male psyche?

It's not so much feeling threatened by a woman, per se, as being faced with the uncomfortable truth that you're not at the top of the pecking order.

Any time you're on the receiving end of ruthlessness, you're going to have a moan about it. When our boss does it, we all say that it's because he's a shortarse.

It's a natural reaction to being on the losing end of some sort of conflict. You put the other person down in a way that makes you feel superior to them (usually behind their back). Unpleasant, but everyone does it, otherwise you end up with a nasty taste in your mouth.

Interestingly, if you _don't_ bitch about things like this, you find yourself behaving in a deeply unpleasant way to someone below you in the pecking order, as though you have to bully someone in order to make yourself feel better about not being at the top of the heap - a sort of 'at least I'm further up than you, pal' kind of thing.

I agree with you about the male/female interaction bit. It's like When Harry Met Sally - men and women can't be 'just friends'. One party will always harbour hopes, even if they have no intention of acting upon them.

I just really disagree with this sentiment. I'm a woman with more male friends than female ones. I think you're both making ridiculously broad generalization based on little more than gender stereotypes. If you go too far down this line, you start treating the two genders as if they are different species. So let's return to reality. There are as many or more differences between *some men* and *some other men* as there are between *some men* and *some women*.

Why do you think it is that you have more male than female friends? Is it to do with your job? Did you grow up in a predominantly male environment? Are you a bit flirty?

Do you find it hard to believe that your male friends might find you attractive? (I don't mean to imply anything derogatory about your self-esteem with that one ) Do you find any of _them_ attractive?

I didn't mean to suggest that the mere fact of finding someone attractive means that you want to get them into bed, it's just that the attraction _has_ to have a bearing on how you feel about them, and if they are of the gender that attracts you sexually then this will always be at the back of your mind somewhere. Am I making sense here? (be kind when you answer that)

Different species? You may be on to something there!

There are more women than men at my workplace. For the most part, my workmates are not my friends. I have no trouble finding friends outside of work. I don't see how my job has any bearing on this discussion.

I did not grow up in a predominantly male environment. I was not abused by my parents, who remained married until my father's death when I was an adult. I do not and have never used drugs, engaged in promiscuous behavior, lacked self-confidence, flirted too much with the oppositite sex, or felt victimized by society in any way.

Why don't you ask yourself why you are asking me these questions. Don't you think your stereotypes could be self-fulfilling prophecies? If you scrutinize me out of context, you are bound to find more dirt on me than on the people you assume are okay, ibso facto.

So let's turn this around a moment. Don't you feel people with primarily same-gender friends lack self esteem? Do they ever find their same-gender friends attractive? Do they think their same-gender friends are gay and attracted to them? Do they work primarily with same-gender employees? Tch-tch-tch. How about their childhood? Hmmmm....

Would you accuse someone with same-gender friends of flirting with them to get attention?

If you feel these questions are inappropriate and/or irrelevant for people with same-gender friends, why the double standard? Could it be that you have nothing to back up your claims, and must dig in the dirt for answers that are not there? I can ask rhetorical questions that cast a poor light on the subject as easily as you can.

Do you feel you must attack me because I threaten your patriarchal viewpoint?

That's just an example.

It is very hard to be kind in response to your post. I am trying, but it's tough. I am worried that you are determined to cast me in a dark light using weak logic because you are all too comfortable with your gender assumptions.

Are you attracted to all opposite-gender people? Are they all attracted to you? No? Then what happens with the ones where there is no attraction either way? My guess is -- you can be friends with them -- but only if you choose to.

For that matter, people who are attracted to each other (mutually or otherwise) can also be friends. It's silly to presume otherwise. Since when does physical attraction preclude friendship?

I have good friends in ex-boyfriends, men I am attracted to where it isn't returned, men who are attracted to me but it isn't returned, men where there is mutual attraction but reason not to follow said attraction, and my best friend of all is my current boyfriend. Tell me. Is this my problem, or yours?

I totally agree, I have lots of (plutonic) male friends. They are people who I have met over the years with whom there is no sexual attraction, but who are just thoroughly charming people who are a pleasure to have as friends. I do, however, have a number of female friends who, on meeting a man, instantly weigh up whether he is
'marriage/long-term relationship' material, and if he is not, they don't bother getting to know him. Unfortunately, these women are unlikely to ever find a suitable/compatable partner as their attitude creates an air of hostility which in itself makes them unattractive to the opposite sex.

Personally, having no interest whatsoever in getting into a 'relationship', I'm quite sure I'm not assessing men when I see them (with the possible exception of Sean Connery, of course).

And if I'm being assessed, I expect I'm quickly dismissed. Which is fine.

As for exerting power, I've noticed that women are quite good at manipulating men - more so, I would say, than the other way around. I must confess I *occasionally* put on the 'poor, helpless female' persona when I think it might get me what I want - usually a cappuccino, I should add, nothing much more serious.

OK. I am not, nor have I ever been, trying to be confrontational, nor cast you in a dark light. My questions were purely out of interest and were the only ones I could think of on the spur of the moment. I was at work when I typed it, hence the first question. My family is me, my wife and two sons, hence the second (even the cat is a Tom). One of my female friends is very attractive and flirty, hence the third. I'm one of those types that has to look for a reason behind everything. Why _do_ you think you have more male than female friends?

Granted the 'harbour hopes' bit was badly phrased (I suppose you will sit there saying 'Aha! Back-pedalling now are we?'). What I mean is that in a male/female relationship, how attractive you find the other person _has_to have a bearing on that relationship.

I realise that I'm assuming that the whole world is heterosexual with that last sentence, but it's early and I can't work out how to word it otherwise (not a morning person).

Among my friends there are some women who I definitely find attractive, and I enjoy talking to them because they seem to like talking to me. I realise that this in no way means that they fancy me, but every now and then I find myself wondering if I would seek them out for a drink down the pub on a Friday lunchtime if I didn't find them attractive. I am honest enough with myself that I consider this (I'm not implying that you're not honest with yourself here).

The 'When Harry Met Sally' quote was just a throw away line in reponse to another post by Kaeori, and I deliberately left 'the sex gets in the way' out of it because I don't believe that not being able to have sex with someone precludes you from having a relationship with them

Replying to the first post, isn't 'immature men' a tautology?

No not really. Because the definition of boy as opposed to a man is in the main based on the physical IMHO