h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>I seemed to be the first person, after (I'm guessing an inebriated) Roy not to have a "Yuck!" reaction.<

Yes you were HI. And before you post I was too cissy to even think of posting here. I think certain aspects and conflicts of our close family after often significant in the people we are attracted, to as adults.

"This conversation made me think quite a lot last night, mainly because I seemed to be the first person, after (I'm guessing an inebriated) Roy not to have a "Yuck!" reaction.

I think that I just struggle to get past the idea of why it should be wrong - if there's no harm involved and so inbreeding and child abuse are ruled out - why is it considered immoral?"

*cough* Post 7 *cough*.

Another interesting article at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6424337.stm

In reply to Post40:

>> but I have to ask isn't that a case of severe sexual abuse and peadophilia, more than it's incest?<<

You're quite right HI - twas certainly severe sexual abuse; it couldn't be incest per se, as we weren't blood related

I think it was simply seeing 'Mother/daughter" my rather literal mind saw daughter (or son)as a child, rather than the adult/adult relationship you then went on to define. As you've acknowledged, what happened to me was pretty unimaginable to the average person,but my gut feeling is still "That's wrong" Fantasy is one thing - acting out that fantasy is another.

I'll give you a solid example;I have 2(now adult) sons. I know objectively they are both very attractive and sexy young men; their potential attractiveness was apparent from a very early age,to me,and to others.

But even at a very young age, when one or the other of them used to crawl into my bed as children, after nightmares, or simply because they were cold,the younger one would always ask me to put a nighty on( because he didn't feel comfortable that I was naked in bed with him

(Though if I trooped thru the flat stark naked after a bath he and his brother wouldn't bat an eyelid. We were always comfortable with our respective bodies and nudity wasn't considered a taboo)

He was about 6,or 7? Old enough , if not to be sexually aware,at least sensuously aware. Possibly Freud has the right of it, and we are, as children, sexually attracted to our parents;and perhaps it *is repressed But he ...if you like"instinctively"asked me to cover up so he would feel comfortable.

HI you then asked:

>>Or, given the emotions involved, is such a relationship even possible?

I think such "adult" relationships are certainly possible , but I think in a lot of cases might just take the form of "I wonder..." rather than "I'm going to find out"

(And yes,I seem to remember having a sort of crush on my adoptive dad in my early teens. It freaked the hell out of me at the time, because, don't forget, we weren't blood related..BUT he was my dad! Other kids just had acne to worry about!

You're right, it's a thought provoking conversation, this thread.

>>I think that I just struggle to get past the idea of why it should be wrong - if there's no harm involved and so inbreeding and child abuse are ruled out - why is it considered immoral?<<

I don't know that I *do consider it immoral in the yuck factor sense -but equally I know that I just wouldn't persue that line of enquiry either, through a conscious choice; just as my sons chose not to when they were little.

Perhaps it's something to do with "blood ties" - something I knew nothing about until I had my own children. I'll have to leave that question to the "Home Growns" amongst the community

>>I think that I just struggle to get past the idea of why it should be wrong - if there's no harm involved and so inbreeding and child abuse are ruled out - why is it considered immoral?<<

Even if you are dealing with two people of the same gender, and so no chance of procreation, that doesn´t mean doing so is okay. There are certain things which don´t hurt anyone, such as having sex with a roadkill deer. That doesn´t mean you should do it. Not following your every impulse is one of those things that make humans more than just animals with clothes on.

>But even at a very young age, when one or the other of them used to crawl into my bed as children, after nightmares, or simply because they were cold,the younger one would always ask me to put a nighty on( because he didn't feel comfortable that I was naked in bed with him<

Interesting, Evadne. My son, nearly 6, climbs into bed with me and hubby virtually every night but has never once asked us to put something on.

Now, this might be a bit odd but...he also won't let me have a bath on my own. He (my son) and hubby will come up and use the loo when I'm in the bath and vice versa. We don't think anything of it. We (me and K) love to play splat games with shaving foam and hand wash. I know I'll have to stop this practice at some time or other but...not yet (I hope)

As for my brothers...we fought like nothing on earth sometimes - I went for my younger brother with a compass at one point . Wouldn't touch him with a ten foot barge pole - unless that was to push him the river

Tis,isn't it Mags?

The older lad didn't seem to worry about it, but the younger lad did. But then, of the 2, the younger son started puberty proper much earlier than the older one,both physically and mentally. Every child's different, I guess.

I was so pleased and proud of him that he felt comfortable/confident enough to *say he didn't feel comfortable too.

(By the time I was his age I was too cowed and emotionally battered to say "Boo" - but that's a different story altogether)

I sort of felt vindicated that despite my own ropey childhood and poor role models I'd succeeded in becoming not only a better parent than either of mine were, but a better human being, somehow. I respected my kids just as much as I expected them to respect me; and it seems to have worked well

I do hope Roymondo and I didn't manage to frighten/scare your.... was it the older kid when we were down?

@course you didn't 2Legs!

The oldest one is just very protective of his mum He was a bit worried I stayed up so late, probably, drinking with strangers as such.

Actually, you and Roy,after my chat with you were a catalyst to go and get councelling so I'm very grateful.The pair of you seemed so upset by what I told you, I finally realised I ought to get help.
It's definately helping a lot

Glad it seemd to help
And Roymondo and I are certainly strange strangers So he's probably right to have been a bit wondersome of us hang on... thats not even a word is it

"Even if you are dealing with two people of the same gender, and so no chance of procreation, that doesn´t mean doing so is okay. There are certain things which don´t hurt anyone, such as having sex with a roadkill deer. That doesn´t mean you should do it. Not following your every impulse is one of those things that make humans more than just animals with clothes on."

There's a difference between law and morality. I've never met anyone who thinks that everything that they think is immoral should also be illegal. Most people (as we have seen in this thread) are not attracted to their siblings, and find the thought rather repulsive, but that's not a good argument for saying that it ought to be illegal. As I said before, I cannot think of a single rational argument for making such relationships illegal. People are welcome to disapprove (it's a free society), but to invoke the force of law against a tiny handful of people who are doing no demonstrable harm just seems bizarre to me.

I also think you do couples in this situation an injustice to describe them as as "following every impluse". Given the taboos that accompany even consensual adult relationships, don't you think it's very unlikely that people would enter such a relationship on a whim? Isn't it far more likely that they'd try very hard not to?

The arguments here seem somewhat similar to arguments that would be made in defence of homosexuality.

True one of my friends who came out moved away shortly ater not because people wouldnt accept him and his new (to them atleast) sexuality but because of the emotional storm it created.

There were recriminations and fall outs between rinds who were cool with it and toehrs who took a very dim view of his prefernces and decison to act on them and tell everyone.

I think that's the case with incest too, its an explosive issue within a family and will certainly have implications with wider relationships.

An ex-girlfriend of mine had sex with several of my friends and one of my closest friends. I forgave them all its not really a big deal I dont get bent out of shape abou what other consenting adults do with their bits those people never sought to hurt me and though I do wish they hadnt it means more to me that they were honest about things.

When we are young inqusitive and restless with homones/emotions that drag us from pillar to post sometimes we do things that shock even ourselves.

Life is a bout growth, change and learning. I learnt that not to hate because of what people dont do or you but to love because of what people mean to you. There actions were good for me in the long run. The ex is now a riend albeit a much less close friend than she was before because we know how we still feel about each other and it would just be too messy if we fell to temptation and "went there" again.

I think this is the biggest problem with incest, you need the space to grow and change and falling out wiht your lover who is your sibling wouldnt be a good idea when you need to go back home after a row.

Though its a bad idea in this sense I do think its natural to fancy ones siblings, but pneumonia, syphylis and cancer are natural too.