h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

But right & wrong are human concepts. How God might perceive right & wrong could be quite different from our understanding.

<But right & wrong are human concepts. How God might perceive right & wrong could be quite different from our understanding.>

Nah! I don't think God is free to choose how to define these things - and neither are we. If causing suffering for fun is right, then I resign from the system. I don't accept that God could do this or would do it. Can you give a brief account of any ethical system in which this might be an acceptable form of behaviour?

toxx

I think the fact that right and wrong being human creations (or to be more accurate parts of a normative discourse based on human behaviour) is perfectly compatible with there being no ethical system in which causing suffering for fun is considered right. Human social nature is such that the notion simply falls outside of what we call ethical.

What is amazing about Flew's conversion is that seems to have come about for reasons that even a first year student would be expected to recognise as fallacious, being both tautological and leading to an infinite regress.

Noggin

Causing suffering disguised as fun:

Well, leaving aside all sexual SM, we have

Bull-fighting
Fox hunting
Reality TV shows (I'm a celebrity et al, but especially that Shattered one where contestants had to stay awake for days on end)
Endurance (that Japanese show)
Jackass, Punk'd, other similar MTV offerings
Anything that involves contestants being covered in goo (Noel Edmonds I do mean you!)

OK, whether these are ethical or not is debatable - but they exist in today's societies

Yup, Noggin. His reasoning is no better than when he was an atheist!

toxx

Well, LS. All your human examples seem to involve *volunteering* for suffering. I think people should (within certain limits) be allowed to do whatever they like to themselves, even though it might be wrong to do some of them to others.

toxx

What about You've Been Framed, and the like? Insane laughing at the misfortunes of others??

You're quite right, causing suffering for fun is a normal part of human behaviour. We do it every time we beat someone in a competition - even if the only suffering is mental it is nonetheless real. Physical competitions such as boxing cause physical suffering too.

I think there's an element of degree here that might turn out to be hard to either define or measure.

F

So you don't consider God omnipotent then?

How humans define right & wrong is irrelevant, if you view God as a superior being.

<

So you don't consider God omnipotent then?>

I do, but I don't consider Him to be perfectly free!

<How humans define right & wrong is irrelevant, if you view God as a superior being.>

Let's suppose that Satan is also a superior being who disagrees with God. In the end, we humans have to decide whom to believe, or work out original answers for ourselves.

toxx

Omnipotent but not perfectly free - sounds contradictory to me.



Definitely not omnipotent then. Given the characteristics of the God you are presenting, what use do you see God having?

Well, how about creating everything including us, for starters?

toxx

Hello, Toxxin... Carry on doing what you're doing, you are good at arguing philo... philosophically..

Hi Adelaide. Hey, I might even be right!

toxx

! (I certainly think there's a good chance!)

Hey, isn't this a bit late for you, Adelaide. I caught some interesting stuff on Radio 4 in the last coupla daze about the 2nd law of thermodynamics and 'intelligent design' as applied to cellular mechanisms. I think the latter is 'humbug' as you might imagine.

toxx

Hey, Toxxin, it's Friday night. Jim is playing Formula 1 2001 on Playstation, and I am sat here having fun..
<< I think the latter is 'humbug' as you might imagine>>
Oh, yes, and I have to agree, with the proviso that I do believe God did start it all off, and used evolution as the means... but you do know that.

Hey, Adelaide. Keep on truckin'. I'm gonna miss Echo an awful lot while she's out of the cyberverse.

Tell me more about your perception of God, toxxin. Is your view of God a being that you worship? If so, why?

Nah. God is just a concept that I sometimes think about. That's about what I do for you too, TS.