h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Recently received a penalty charge notice due to 'parking in a pay & display car park without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket'.

The reason for this - the (pay & display) ticket was blown face down as I shut my car door.
Obviously, I had not realised that the ticket had blown face down, as I normally place the ticket on the dashboard, close the door, and walk away towards my place of work.

The ticket didn't even have a sticky bit where I could put it on the windscreen, and although it being a relatively windy day, I did not anticipate my (pay & display) ticket to land in such a way as to result in receiving a PCN.

Is it even worth my time trying to challenge the PCN, or, as suggested (see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/A16059648 ), just give up and fork out the cash to end this particular episode?

Take them to court and win.

Before going to court, simulate the conditions under which the ticket was bought, and film them using a digital camera or the like. I presume you still have the actual ticket that shows that you have paid, with date and time clearly marked? Show the film in court.

RF

I've challenged a couple of PCNs and been let off.
Both times they said they wouldn't be so lenient next time.

These days, most parking attendants take photographs to prove the ticket was face down on your dash when they issued the PCN. Regardless of whether the ticket was valid at the time of PCN issue, the photo would prove the offence had been committed (they are admissible evidence) and that the attendant was justified in issuing a PCN.

The council just provide the pay & display tickets, they are not obliged to put a sticky label on the back. It is the responsibility of the driver to ensure that the ticket is displayed correctly once purchased. You should have checked it was face up and secure before leaving the vehicle.

Your best hope is really to get a sympathetic adjudicator who thinks the ticket should have had a means of fixing it to the screen, but don't get your hopes up. If you are going to challenge it though, make sure you do it quickly as most PCN's have a discount if paid promptly. Lodging your challenge during this discount period will, in most cases, secure the discount rate if the appeal is later rejected.

Will a parking attendant's camera be good enough to show which way up the ticket was?

Presumably you park in this car park often, and buy a ticket every time. If so, I have a little suggestion for you. It doesn't relate to this charge, just a nice little ongoing "f*** you" to the little hitler who nicked you.

NEVER throw a ticket away. Collect them every day for a few weeks. Scrounge up any from your footwell, glove box or door bin.

Then, once you've got a lot, arrive in the car park, buy your ticket, and display it properly in your windscreen - along with as many others as you can get, all of which will obviously be invalid. The ticket terms and conditions demand that you display the ticket, which of course you will do. They don't say anything about NOT displaying 100 others that aren't valid, requiring the parking attendant to check them ALL before he can work out whether he can PCN you or not.

The wonderful thing about this one is that with every passing day, it just gets better and better as you place more and more invalid tickets on your dash, with the valid one clearly visible in amongst them - to you.

To save time, you could even stick all the invalid ones to a large sheet of paper and simply roll it out across your windscreen as a sunshade each morning. Works for me...

I have to say I suspect you dont have a leg to stand on

However I do have a point to make about this 'discount' period. It's a clever bit of psychology. What they used to say was that if you didnt pay by X time you'd be further penalised by the fine going up, a simple change in wording (it's a discount, a bonus! You're winning!) and people think they are getting something out of it It's bloody clever. I suspect it works and it helps to fight the cycle of negative feeling leading to people not paying up for ages etc, it makes you WANT to get it paid quickly because you feel like youre getting a bargain... Someone, somewhere actually earnt their money and their degree there!

I Got one a while back and challenged it because when i examined the offence on the ticket the time of the offence he had put down was wrong i was still at home at the time and so was the car

i would write them a letter explaining you never know

Not one to advertise, but hubbie did a lovely entry on the process (he's modest, but his claim changed the whole Norfolk Council setup and cost them about a million quid in invalid tickets!!)

A16059648

Always protest! It's their burden to prove that you were at fault so show your ticket, tell them that the traffic warden was blind and didn't see your ticket! Their word against yours that the ticket wasn't visible!

>>> Will a parking attendant's camera be good enough to show which way up the ticket was? <<<

Yes, they will. We can zoom in to see exactly what details are on the ticket (curses, the secret's out). As for the other suggestion about putting loads of tickets on the screen, this would guarantee an instant PCN. A Parking Attendant or Warden would not even bother to check through all the tickets, they would just book you for having an obscured pay and display ticket. Even though the ticket details were visible to the eye it would be obscured by the sheer number of other tickets on the screen. I have booked three of these myself, all were challenged and every one was upheld.

Incidentally, I have been told by our management that since introducing cameras 87% of challenged PCN's have been upheld in favour of the council. By all means appeal, it doesn't cost you anything after all, but don't hold your breath. At the end of the day, you were in the wrong. Deal with it.

<>

It's true, actually. It's a glass half full rather than glass half empty way of looking at it.

yup. same outcome but by giving it a positive slant, you are encouraged to do the right thing rather than threatened for doing thr wrong thing even if you havent yet (well, apart from incurring the charge in the first place...). Clever. Psychology. Makes you wonder what it is about our society that it's taken so bloody long to try being nice to people for a change!

I think you could challenge the way things are done.

1) To treat people fairly and with respect (and we want to live in a society where people respect each other, right?) I think they could introduce a system where you a given a set time to produce your ticket at an agreed place. This is what ticket-man would do if he suddenly realised that the car he's "booked" belongs to a family member or friend, no? Why not treat everyone with the same respect? There could be a problem with people using other people's tickets, however, but there should be a simple way around that. However, they would never introduce this system, as it would lower their revenue.

2) They could make ticket machines that print the details on both sides of the ticket. However, they would never introduce this system, as it would lower their revenue.

3) They could have clear signs on the ticket machines alerting people to the problem that tickets blow over easily in cars and that it is the driver's responsibility to make sure that tickets are clearly displayed. However, they would never introduce this system, as it would lower their revenue.

Finally, I don't want to overdose on cynicism, but what's the odds that they don't have sticky stuff because it saves on both splashing out £££ on sticky stuff and it makes tickets more likely to blow over?

hmm.. the side of road parking machines in bristol have sticky layers... I suspect it depends where you are. Perhaps find lots of other aggrieved people and get some advice on whether a bunch of you could force the council to provide sticky-backed tickets or back the hell off?

... Or buy some blu-tac and put it on the machine with a sign saying 'You might need a bit of this, it could save you a parking fine...'

My challenge was 'accepted'.

Although, I have been told to make sure that it doesn't happen again in future, otherwise they won't 'be able to help' [with a challenge] next time.

When this happened to me, I took the time ticket showing that I had paid for the spot and explained about the door breeze flipping it etc, to the office. I was so very nice about it, so much so that the girl there apologized to me for the inconvenience of coming in and waived the fine right there.

It seems that simple courtesy is so rare these days that, when it appears, it can have an amazing effect.

Deakie, did you read post one?

F5578599?thread=4850131.

TRiG.

Always challenge it. On principle. Parking regulations are there for a reason, and frequently these are not the reasons that tickets are issued. They have become another method of mugging motorists and they should be challenged on any pretext. If you make sure you get your challenge in quickly then you will not lose the 'cheap' period for payment, (this will be held over until after your appeal is resolved,) and it will hopefully annoy the council, if nothing else. If they are allowed to go unquestioned then their sharp practices, (such as the one in this case,) and laziness will continue unchallenged. To most councils it appears that we are just a revenue stream, rather than the people they are supposed to be helping.

I recently appealed a PCN, (twice,) and eventually got it revoked on completely different grounds to the ones I originally challenged it on. The council (Westminster) had changed the parking restrictions in the area where my girlfriend lives from Mon-Fri 8:30-6:30 to Mon-SUNDAY 8:30-6:30, for one weekend only, without warning anyone in advance or erecting any extra notices to warn visitors. As a result, I got a ticket. I appealed on the grounds that although I had been illegally parked, the council surely had a responsibility to inform residents and visitors alike of the temporary change, as well as the fact that the notice on their pay-and-display machine hadn't been changed and still showed the normal details. They rejected this, but then sent me a PCN for the wrong amount, which when I appealed again led to the notice being revoked.

Most of the time the council will play on your fear of legal action and increased penalties in order to bully you into paying a charge that is usually not correct in spirit of the law and often incorrect in the letter of the law either. They also often use the same tactics to cover up their own sloppiness.

My girlfriend recently got issued with two tickets totalling £120 for parking her scooter outside of the correct bay. She appealed it, since she had parked it inside the bay and it had been moved by another motorcyclist while she was out of the country. Her road is checked by parking attendants at least once a day and the first ticket was issued two days before she returned to Britain, so she can prove when the bike was moved and that it couldn't have been her from the stamps in her passport. The council still turned down her appeal on the grounds that 'parking within the correct bays is the responsibility of the resident'. She paid up, despite the fact that I'm sure the fine would have been overturned in court.

Sue the bastards. They deserve it.

Never thought I'd say it, but where's That's Life! when you need it?

I would've gone to prison (and just about every newspaper under the sun) before I'd paid that.

>> The council (Westminster) had changed the parking restrictions in the area where my girlfriend lives from Mon-Fri 8:30-6:30 to Mon-SUNDAY 8:30-6:30, for one weekend only <<

I would have challenged that one myself and asked to see the Temporary Traffic Regulation Order. It takes ages to process them, they are expensive to implement (especially for just one weekend), and if they had bothered to get one at all they would certainly have publicised it to make sure it would stand up in court. The absence of any such TTRO would make the new times unenforceable and could lead to deep doo doo for the coucil as they would be issuing illegal fines to the public. Unless it's one of those flip down signs for the footie matches (which I believe have their own enforcement legislation in place) it sounds like some seriously dodgy bluffing to me, glad I don't work for 'em...