h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

kea, aren't you arguing against yourself somewhat there?

You admit that the Romans (at the time the dominant cultural and military power) stealing and abusing the Greek myths was just part of their history and cultural developments, but the Americans are just doing it to ruin things

Couldn't we see this as simply an American culture co-opting older myths and twisting them to reflect the cultural mores of their time? I can imagine people in hundreds of years time talking about Disney modifying all sorts of older myths in the same way as we currently talk about Pliny or Ovid altering Greek myths.

When a story is altered by the Americans (or the Brits, or the French, or the Chinese etc) what they change reveals a lot about dominant ideas in their culture at that time. That's always kinda interesting.

As for children being influenced by a slightly inaccurate depiction of an older story, I'm in the camp that says it's harmless. I'm a huge fan of Shakespeare's plays, with Othello being my favourite (my name kinda gives this away). The first time I heard of Othlello was as a 14 year-old watching an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer called Earshot, which is based on a loose interpretation of an idea from Othello.

The idea presented in Earshot was nothing like the real substance in Othello but it caught my interest, enough to make me read the play and watch it 3 years before I'd do so at school. I can think of half a dozen similar examples.

I love h2g2. VIP starts a thread asking what people think of Xena, and it becomes a deep discussion about the power of myth, and the adaption of myths by the prevailing culture of the day.

This is why I love h2g2. Pray continue.


Geggs

My sentiments exactly! And I also love that Buffy has come into it... Joss is a genius of our time...

"Couldn't we see this as simply an American culture co-opting older myths and twisting them to reflect the cultural mores of their time? I can imagine people in hundreds of years time talking about Disney modifying all sorts of older myths in the same way as we currently talk about Pliny or Ovid altering Greek myths."

The problem I have with it is the reason for doing so. Pliny would have been doing it as a way to control a population, to make transitions easier. Good ol' Xena was doing it simply to entertain the masses.

I love Xena, but dear BoB do they mangle myths.

The writer were raping a the mythos in order to generate a a brain dead product to create money from the nihlistic masses. So yes, all art (such as it is) is indelibly painted with the colours of the time.

>>Pliny would have been doing it as a way to control a population, to make transitions easier. Good ol' Xena was doing it simply to entertain the masses<<

I'm not sure that Pliny and the writers of Xena are that far apart. Pliny's tales are entertaining and informative - a child could enjoy them without needing to think about the political power play they are being used for.

To some degree, Xena is part of a similar political process - it (and obviously the hundreds of TV programmes like it) help extend American soft power (in contrast to hard power like economic and military capabilities) and ideological hegemony. I think it's safe to say the Pliny's primary aim was political and that Xena's is entertainment, but I think the political aspect is there and pretty clear.

Again, it's not just the Americans who do this. When the British alter a story, you can more or less guarantee that there will be an underdog who will achieve despite the odds, or at the very least win the sympathy of the audience. There will also be references to staunchness of character - a 'stiff upper-lip' idea. It reflects key parts of our culture.

My thoughts on Xena: It's better than Robin Hood(ie). It has more totty in it, and at least wears it's inaccurate fantasy badge with pride.

But it falls down because it doesn't have Guy of Gisbourne in it... Bad men in black leather are rather attractive... Especially when they are total dolts when it comes to women

That's as may be... but it's not even decent leather!

no but it's studded and we know he is a fool for a pretty woman... *sigh*

Just looked here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/robinhood/characters/guy.shtml

No, if there ever were a guy that could take my back... it would be Tyr aka Keith Hamilton Cobb.

hahaha, Every girl is allowed one bad-guy crush!

The rest of them are nice guys... well, except Jayne from Firefly... I like him cos he's big an dumb an protective despite his hard-headed cold attitude... And he's a damn fine lookin man, and when he whines cos he's not allowed grenades? Well, I'd love to put him on the naughty step!

Kea:
When you change mythology articificially, suddenly and arbitrarily you are messing with quite complex things.

This thread just gets better and better.

HonestIago:

>>
You admit that the Romans (at the time the dominant cultural and military power) stealing and abusing the Greek myths was just part of their history and cultural developments, but the Americans are just doing it to ruin things
<<

Yeah, bloody Americans

>>
Couldn't we see this as simply an American culture co-opting older myths and twisting them to reflect the cultural mores of their time? I can imagine people in hundreds of years time talking about Disney modifying all sorts of older myths in the same way as we currently talk about Pliny or Ovid altering Greek myths.
<<

There is a difference between modifying something and completely wrecking it though. Have you watched much of Xena? I admit it's been a long time since I saw it but from what I remember it wasn't so much making modifications to stories to make them fit the current political/cultural context, as just mixing up any and all stories in service to the writers idea of entertainment. The word 'mangling' has been used several times already. They're not making minor, or even significant changes to a story, they're taking multiple stories and completely butchering them.

I do agree that we can see the US co-opting as part of their cultural imperative, but I think Xena loses all value culturally and signifies a culture that really doesn't understand the value of mythology.

As I said earlier, not all change serves a culture well. That's true of the Romans too. In the case of Xena it looks to me that the creators simply don't give a shit.

My thoughts on Xena the show:

I think they needed to try and keep some of the mythology intact for the younger generation. There are always variations in translation in the case of mythology - as it was handed down for centuries - but making it too vague or drastic changes does effect. Example, some people who get interested in the mythology could read the actual myths and say "Hey, this wasn't on 'Xena.' Why did they change it in the book?"

That said, minor changes, such as having Aphrodite in lingerie had to be done because they could've very well have the actress go around in the buff. Then again I could be mistaken and Aphrodite did eventually start wearing clothes in mythology. It's been a while since I've read that story.

As far as the show itself, it was mindless fun. I liked "Hercules" a little bit more out of the two, but I did like Joxer and the thief (name escapes me now, but played by Bruce Campbell).

Out of all the episodes that bugged me, the one that really did was the one where Xena knew first aid did the equivalent of a C-section, artificial respiration and other major stuff that wouldn't have been around in that time period. It was annoying, especially the birth scene ("Look into the candle and you won't feel any pain..." seems a bit unrealistic to me - at least in that time). The scene where she saves her friend's life too seemed to drip innuendo a bit too.

I'll admit shows such as the "The Wild, Wild West" (made in the states in the '60s) have played around with history when items were discovered, it was minor. Example, in "WWW" they have items used ether, but the show was set a few years prior to the discovery of the drug being used as an anesthetic. The stuff in "Xena" however, is over centuries in difference - at least CPR/artificial respiration. It was an annoying episode, and I haven't seen an episode of it since.

The thief's name is Autolycus. Bruce Campbell does a fantastic job.

Interestingly, the author of the (not ver good) Xena h2g2 article claims that this person:
http://www.jcf.org/about_jc.php
is the Joseph Campbell who was a co-producer of Xena. Surely anyone who is recognised as such a great scholar on the subject of myth wouldn't have let them get away with anything that he though beyond the pale?


http://www.mythsdreamssymbols.com/transformations.html

Where does it say that Campbell was a producer? I can't find that anywhere.

You know what? Neither can I. *is confused*

I have no idea where I got the idea from. Although he is quoted a lot in the myriad of Xena discussions and articles, I can't see anything to say that he had a hand in the show.

I wonder where the original writer of the h2g2 article got it from too...

How could he produce the show if he was dead?