h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Atom_boy: "UK : ...Jewish 350,000" Not sure how old the CIA's figures are, but they're in conflict with the UK census figure, over-estimating the Jewish population by over 25%.

Given the US's political position with regard to Jews, this is hardly surprising however (the mistake, or the overestimate). It is of course always in a group's interest to inflate their numbers to make themselves look more important than they are.

In fact, the 2001 census showed in the UK only 260,000 people self-identified as Jewish. Slightly less than one half of one per cent of the population, in other words. As I've pointed out before, Jedi outnumber Jews in the UK three to two. Funny, WE've not been given a homeland where we can bulldoze the indigenous population's houses with impunity. We don't even get a slot on "Thought for the Day"

Adelaide/Della/Adele/Debbie/Annie: Perhaps you misunderstand the nature of RE in schools (perhaps you misunderstand practically everything you read...). The point of RE in most schools is NOT to indoctrinate the young in a particular religion, it is (in theory at least) to describe the history and contexts of various religions. All the RE I had at school (which admittedly ended 19 years ago) took the indoctrination into Christianity for granted - we were supposed to have got that from Church. RE lessons never tried to "convince" me of anything, which is just as well.

And as for being shocked that Christians would make remarks about disabled people being so because they deserve it - haven't you ever MET any Christians? Do you honestly think we believe you're shocked? That sort of behaviour is, in my experience, absolutely typical - 100% representative of Christians. Oh sure, the majority of them (by no means all) do have some sense that their backward, mediaeval views are no longer acceptable by civilised modern people, so they've learned to keep thoughts like that between themselves. But every now and then the mask slips, even with the most apparently tolerant and pleasant types, and they reveal themselves to be the same kind of vile scum that go round shooting doctors in the name of their "Lord", if a little less prepared to put their firearms where their mouth is.

Unless every single teacher in three church schools over a dozen years had fundamentally misrepresented Christianity to me - unlikely - one of the central messages of Christianity is that APPARENT evil, such as the suffering of a baby or the death of an innocent, is all part of your god's plan, and happens for a reason. Ineffable reasons we mere humans can't understand, of course, but a reason nevertheless. So if your child is disabled, well, god meant that to happen for a reason - perhaps to test you, or something. This is NOT a shocking thing to hear coming from a Christian, it's a perfectly ordinary and common thing of the sort they say ALL THE TIME.

So please, don't patronise us with protestations of civilisation - you're not very good at it.

H.

I've met Christians who don't seem to have such fatalistic views. I'll admit, they could just be good at dissembling.
However, there are a vast number of different sects, some of which are less literal in their interpretation of the Bible.

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Neither are you, Hoo! If you want to fight with Adelaide, and christians, don't pretend to do it on my behalf, or on behalf of disabled people. Go somewhere else.

Ami of zx

The thing about RE in schools here in western australia, at least when I was there (about 15 years ago), was that it wasn't really portrayed as RE. It was all about christianity, a bit of bible and a lot of what they called 'christian values', the basic, typical, very western idea of how christians behave and why this is a good example of behaviour. What I dislike about this sort of stuff in schools (which, because of the increasing ethnic diversity, they've changed, hooray!) is the assumption of christianity. In the eighties and early nineties it was right and proper to assume that a child, particularly if they were of european descent, would be a christian. This is also gradually changing, with things like christmas celebrations and easter parades being phased out/secularised in our school.

As for statistics, I agree about them being deceptive (I'm studying mathematics). Lots of people here in wa, too, would declare themselves
'catholics' or uniting church (anglican and methodists here in aus)despite only being in church at christmas, weddings, christenings or funeral services. Indeed, my parents did this right up until the 'incident'. Since then we've written 'unbeliever', 'none', 'not applicable' and 'atheist' on our family census forms, depending on who was filling out the form.

Ami of zx

When we were children, my father always insisted that we all put "object to state" in the religion box on the census forms. Now I just put Christian and my son puts whatever he puts - I don't ask him. I agree about statistics, though.

i would put NONE OF YOU BUISNESS!
cheers
soon to die ford

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And then there are the 390,000 (I think that number's right) people in England and Wales who declared themselves "Jedi" on the 2001 census form--I think that's evidence that those statistics are questionable--or else there are a lot more really serious Star Wars fans out there than I would have thought.

There are hard and soft statistics though.

A hard statistic is how much tax revenue is collected its a figure you can count the money and you *know* how much it is. If you show a film about the state of the health service the figure is unlikey to change.

If you ask how many people care about the starving people in Darfor you will get an answer that relies on people knowing where Darfor is what' happening there etc... Show film depicting their plight and the answer will probably change.

Moreover such opinion poll statistics can give weird answers depending on how the question is asked.

Ask who is in favour of terminations as a form of birth control and you will get one answer. No mostly. Ask who is in favour of the right of women to choose to have a termination where other forms of contraception have failed and you get different answers.

Athena: that number is absolutely correct (at least to three significant figures) - well done for getting it right. I don't think this shows the statistics to be in question. I also don't think it says anything about Star Wars fandom.

There was a concerted campaign on the internet to get people to put "Jedi". I suspect that any rational person with a sense of humour and an engagement with popular culture would have complied.

On that basis, I think 390,000 is a perfectly believable figure, and more or less what I would have expected - slightly less than 1% of the people in this country are rational (i.e. don't believe in fairies, goblins, elves, gods, demons, monsters, etc.) and have a sense of humour. This tallies well with my experience of the world. Doesn't it yours?

I shall be interested to see how many there are on the *next* census - one taking place when there isn't a Star Wars trilogy in production...

H.

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I'd heard of that, but I think it proves my point that statistics from surveys where there isn't a punishment for lieing (according to what I read online, the religion is exempt from the rule about answering the form truthfully and completely) aren't particularly trustworthy. In this case, there was a relatively small target for the survey--only rational people would be likely to respond that way. 1% of the population of rational people is what? 5-10% of the total British population (just a guess)? What it shows is that people with a sence of humor can alter survey results noticeably. Or for that matter, people who have some other motive to lie to the survey-takers. I agree that a little under 1% of the population sounds about right for rational people with a sence of humor (probably would be a little lower in the US considering the percentage of fundamentalist Christians in the country)--but a email campaign that wasn't targeted at only rational people could have a bigger effect.

I suppose my point in 890 isn't really relevant here, since this is really a discussion of religion on census forms and not surveys in general.

I was one of the people who put Jedi on my census form. Yes, initially, for a joke but when I thought about it putting Jedi said quite a bit.
I do not believe in any gods hence I cannot put down any religion. I will certainly not put down 'athiest' as that is a tag put on people who do not believe gods created the universe by people who do believe in gods.

So what do I do ignore the question or subvert it?

My view of putting Jedi is that most people will just think how childish. However, the Jedi religion is a made up religion for a film and, from my point of view, ALL religions are made up. Therefore, Jedi is a valid religion to put down and as has been mentioned in a few posts over the past year the philosophy of a Jedi is indeed a forward thinking, peaceful view on life.

So, yes people who put Jedi on their census forms have a sense of humour but also a sense of the absurd...just like people who still carry on following religions.

wait, i thought athesist didnt believe in any gods whatsoever?
cheers
ford

Usually, when theists use the word "atheist", they mean a person who doesn't believe in their particular god. Thus, Muslims in Nigeria call the local polytheists "atheists". Also, Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson, both Deists, were called atheists be American Christians.

so then... what someone who isnt in anyreligion, doesnt belive in any god whatsoever and stuff? im learning alot today!
cheers
ford

"so then... what someone who isnt in anyreligion, doesnt belive in any god whatsoever and stuff? im learning alot today!"

That would be an atheist. Or an agnostic. Or a rationalist. Or a "Bright".

ok... but dont authisists belive that a god created the universe or something?
cheers
ford

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umm ford, if you mean 'atheists' the answer is almost always NO. Why would they?

Ami of zx

also, as an addition to my post with the factbook figures: even though the numbers are probably a bit on the high side (jews, muslims) and low on the atheist numbers they probably reflect the construction of the population relatively good. What I meant to say that I as a citizen from one of the most "de-churchified" country's in the world, I find it very hard to relate to this discussion...atheism or agnotism come's very naturally to Dutch...


Nevertheless; this discussion is very, very, very interesting! (i'll follow as a lurker, but these are just my