h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Pattern chaser - when did you notice the violence of it? Cos that's something that I thought she'd get that straight away, being fond of baby Jesus and all and knowing whatever else he represented Jesus was a real person that was the big concern for me. Hopefully because we don't dwell on the cruxifiction it won't be in anyway damaging but as you mention it there are certain churches that I'd avoid because of the graphics, not that we go to any anyway, ahem. I'm not totally sure that I understand that reaction because the first tme she watched pokemon she cried and cried because the pokemon fought and just our luck (fluffy and firendly)Pikachou was up and got the crap beaten out of him and similary she won't watch Tom and Jerry which is 'stupid, mean and what's funny about hurting each other?'

School come close to indoctrination at times, and I'm surprised by that, she told me the other day that you had to believe in God to go her school, which angered me, but that's another subject....

Love Peanut xx

This is a reply to post 60

And it still doesn’t address the topic of why all men (as opposed to women) lie

Hi Indefatigable…

I’d like to emphasise that I draw a distinction between Religion and Spirituality.

Spirituality however is something I am not really familiar with other than my own feelings and hunches, so it is an area I am keen to explore. Perhaps this is why I am taking such an interest in this discussion.

I define religion as an unholy alliance (please pardon the pun) of people with a broadly common yet hidden agenda that involves manipulating society for ulterior motives. Therefore, for me, religion is a scam, or *lie*.

I am happy to perceive humans as pack animals, we live in groups and as such, a hierarchical structure with rules/conventions/laws etc is simply a *natural* feature, essential to the pursuit of harmony and well-being of the group.

Due to my background, I can only talk about Christianity with anything remotely akin to authority, although I have had the benefit of being briefly immersed in the physical (but not spiritual) worlds of Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam. As a result I have been able to appreciate many parallels despite the fundamental differences.

Your paragraph <<One of the purposes of religion&#8230;.....is pure crowd control.>> I agree with entirely, and I doubt if I could have said it so well, so thanks!

As for the notion that an atheist can be a good person&#8230; I sure hope so! Otherwise that rules me out for a gold star&#8230;

This might be distorting the dictionary definition of atheism (and probably the limits of most peoples pedantic tolerance levels) but I would like to differentiate between the sort of people who have no belief in any spirituality whatsoever and those (like me) who do not adhere to the idea of one (or indeed many) supreme beings.

To me, spirituality is self evident in how we interact. Our laughter, tears, concern, love and hate are all capable of altering the emotions of others. This is only a superficial interpretation I admit, but any more and I&#8217;ll send everyone, including myself, off to sleep!

The inextricably linked bit refers to my perception that many people do not appreciate that the need for order and harmony can be achieved without the intervention of divine guidance.

As Brian said, we're all individuals!

sixSevens

It's good that this moves on to religion because almost every faith in the western world is patriarchal in organisation, so men lying is what religion is about.

BTW: love the elegant 'religion is crowd control' statement.

How do you know that they do, have you met them all. I don't remember meeting you... or do I?

Yes you do!!!

woman lie more than men!!!!

Oh dear I hope I haven't lowered the tone

===============================================================
Andy said
**It's good that this moves on to religion because almost every faith in the western world is patriarchal in organisation, so men lying is what religion is about.

BTW: love the elegant 'religion is crowd control' statement**

===============================================================
Is *individual* lying the same as *collective* lying, on one level, obviously yes, But when I lie, its generally an almost involunatry reaction that my brain makes when it hasn't got time to focus...

Institutional lying is sustained and has a game plan thats stretches 100's of years into the past and future...

<> I have a different view: for me, religion - and science too - are belief systems we use to help us to understand the world, and to live in it. Both offer models of the world that we can use to predict the world's behaviour. Sure, these models have significant differences, but their purpose is prediction, and their value is (or should be ) assessed on the success of these predictions. I'm a pantheist, BTW, if you were wondering? ;-) If religion is your thing, c'mon over to the Freedom From Faith Foundation (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A665101), where such things are discussed at length. [Go to the discussion thread entitled "A New Kind of Business Forum" - http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F80629?thread=155651 - and introduce yourself.] The FFFF is a forum where dogmatists such as fundamentalist christians get short shrift. You can discuss what you want there, and speak freely. Of course, that doesn't mean that everyone there will necessarily agree with you. :-) Pattern-chaser "Who cares, wins"

<>

I don't remember - it was some time ago now. I'm 47, but stopped attending the Catholic Church when I was sixteen...

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Religion may 'explain' things ('because that's what God wants'), but I was under the impression that it didn't predict much at all.

<>

Religion, more particularly in days of yore, gave us a (more or less) complete explanation (model) of the world, how it was and is, and how it came to be. The understanding we gain from the model enables us to predict how the world will behave, and this in turn enables us to live in that world.

[E.g. most of us plan on the basis that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, although we have no *guarantee* that it will. We expect it because our chosen world model predicts that it will. And when it does, our confidence in that model is reinforced. And so on...]

It doesn't matter much how implausible the model may seem - the only meaningful/useful test we can make is to use it to predict how the world will behave, and judge it according to the success (or not) of those predictions. After all, who knows what the world is *really* like?

Just before you conclude I'm talking rubbish , consider quantum mechanics. I can't think of a less intuitive belief system, but it's proved to be the most successful scientific theory to date. It even allows for the (unimaginably small but non-zero) probability of a sperm whale and a bowl of petunias spontaneously materialising in the upper atmosphere. QED.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

> And no-one should ever ask 'does my bum look big in this?'
> Ben

Oh, they can ask. But if they have to ask, they certainly can't be expecting to hear the truth.

That's one reason men lie. It's expected.

But the main reason men lie is the same answer to that other question women always ask: 'Why do dogs lick themselves?'
Simply, because they can.

~jwf~

Oh my, I see the topic drifted considerably since Ben's post about bum sizes, so my clever reply above may seem out of context now.

Fear not, for indeed, the answer to all Religious questions (such as crowd control, warping young minds, impalements, etc) is essentially the same. Because they can and we let them.

jwf

I'm not sure that religion predicts that the sun *will* rise tomorrow - what some religions say is "If you don't give nice offerings to the god (ie priests), the sun *won't* rise tomorrow, or the next eclipse will last for ever, or the rains won't come, or winter won't end, or you won't go to paradise".
Sounds more like demanding money with menaces than predictions to me.

I'm not sure what the problem with bums is anyway. The question should surely be rephrased as "Does my bum look *too* big in this", and would be likely to get many more positive answers. Given the original question, I can't see what should be wrong with the answer
"Ooooh - yes. Mmmmmm"

A high hip/waist ratio is one of the typical attractive attributes of women, and I understand studies have shown that men generally prefer a more errm 'upholstered' figure than women generally think.

Hi Potholer!

You must be very lucky, assuming you go out with women...

Even if the question is "does my bum look *too* big in this?", if the answer is yes.

In my experience, regardless of how the question is asked, if ever the *answer* is yes, you won't get out the door until an hour after the cafe/show etc was shut/over etc!

sixSevens

I'm not saying it *is* OK, just that it *should* be OK.

A given man should have a pretty good idea how large his partner's bum actually is, and won't be seriously swayed in his estimation by a particular piece of apparel.
I'm sure some women might be concerned if their bloke asked them "Do you think *other* women would find me attractive in this", which seems to be effectively the same as what the standard 'bum' question is about.

Anyone got any opinions on the question

"Do my breasts look big in this?"

Would a yes or no be the right answer?

There is only one answer to all questions, 42!

Alji

SixSevens wrote: "As for the notion that an atheist can be a good person, I sure hope so! Otherwise that rules me out for a gold star"

Even animals have the capability to be altruistic, even in situations where helping another does not promote the well-being of the self. If they can do that, a human being can certainly decide for themselves to help other people (or not to hurt other people) without having a religious person suggest it to them first.

This last post reminds me that dogs can lie, not that convincingly I admit. I've seen it first hand.(a long story and rather funny , if you're )

Perhaps intellect, consciousness and conscience are directly proportional.

My dog *lied* because she knew she had done something wrong (eaten an entire leg of lamb from the kitchen!) and didn't consider the consequences until it was too late. Perhaps being unable to make recompense, she *lied* as a last ditch effort to escape admonishment.

This thread sure gets around.