h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Testosterone

Sorry Cooper, I thought it was Corinth that had written it.

I´ve met plenty of women who debated by saying everything the other person said was b*****ks. Nothing typical male about that. On the other hand I would say women go more with emotions in debates.

I don´t think anybody here claims there aren´t any differences between men and women. Also in the brain. But that you should be able to sum them up as simply as agcB did seems unrealistic.

Trillian's Child:

I know you're not trying to provoke me. One of the oldest patterns for debate goes thus:

1. Statement of a 'theme'--in this case, Post 84
2. Response against the theme--in this case, Post 86
3. Defence of the theme
4. Response to the defence

My "way of arguing" is nothing more than picking out what I see to be the holes in your logic and positing questions designed to make you think about how you made that particular logical connexion. I think you'll find that this is the manner in which many logical arguments go.

If we were to keep talking without any interaction between our theses--that is, you say something, and I say something that is without a quote or direct reference to your statement, we'd never resolve anything! It'd just be two viewpoints, and there'd be no clear indication of which was correct, somewhat like " 'Is not!' 'Is too!' ". Even a good logical argument needs its weaknesses exploited so it can be improved. This is how a logical debate SHOULD work.

I still don't see how you think we're in agreement on the violence/nurture issue. Can we get a second opinion?

--Cooper

Tefkat:

Did you remove them from all popular culture? I think you didn't.

Even without it directly in the home, kids pick it up.

--Cooper

Xanatic, I completely agree that you cannot possibly sum up the differences between men and women as glibly as I did. I hedged my bets with a couple of comments about bellcurves and saying that the traits noted *tended* to be true.

Hell, we are all people, baffling, confusing, and impossible to generalize about.

Generalized to everyone here who is a member of the human race

a person called Ben

Random thoughts:

In a discussion on grammatical gender (though of course it's shifted now to feminism), one would expect to see opinions on sex-specific words (aviatrix, senator, &c) and the words "human", "female", and "woman".

"Human":
Etymologically, it is in no way related to "man". End of story.

"Female":
Similarly, it is not related to "male"

Thoughts on the usage "womyn":
This particular word may make some people feel better about themselves, as "woman" is actually related to "man" (from wif, wife and mann, person [Old English]). If we want to discard "woman", we should do it thoroughly--no half-measures. I propose either "wibe", from the German, or "femine", from the Latin, if a substitute must be found.

--Cooper

What is the origin of female, then Cooper?

still signing myself:
a girl called Ben

"Female" comes from the Old French "femelle", from the Latin "femella", the diminutive form of "femina", woman.

"Male" comes from the Old French "masle", from the Latin "masculus", the diminutive of "mas", male.

--Cooper

The etymology is, as always, fascinating.
I will never figure out why people get so het up about the subject though...

About being completely divorced from popular culture Cooper:
Would no TV, radio, telephone, and no contact with the locals (nothing in common) suffice?

You know the sort of strange female that plays Bach and Mozart to foetuses, teaches 2 year olds to read, makes own bread, cheese, wine, yogurt, entertainment, lets them wander about naked...

My visitors were almost all trainee priests, musicians or budding doctors (sometimes all 3 at once), who couldn't see any need for a distinction between male and female either.
We all felt the differences were culturally led and were determined not to stereotype.

Ah, what it is to be young

(Prepared to throw out the theories when the evidence doesn't fit )

I'm impressed, Tefkat!

When you say the result were "testosterone", what do you mean?

Now you've gone and got me fascinated in your children's home life.

--Cooper

Hello one and all. I've been prompted to post, because of some of the things I've read (and then thought about) since about posting 80.

Has anyone actually defined what gender is (apart from listing the three possible options) ? I think the closest anyone came was saying that table in french was not female, but had feminine gender. This comes down to the fact that (certainly in a human sense) sex isn't the same as gender. I think everyone here is happy with the concept of female and male sex (though some unfortunate people are not so easily classified).

So what exactly IS gender ? It is (I believe) the result of a recognisable grouping of characteristics (this doesn't readily apply to language, just living creatures). Even those who have posted here denying the predominance of particular traits for male and female would instantly recognise and understand the implications of female or male gender.

Where do these characteristcs come from, that make female and male so easily distinguishable in most people ? I for one have never subsribed to either side in the nature vs. nurture debate. Everyone who sides one way or the other has got it wrong - life is much more complex than that. Humans seem to have a desire to simplify any problem to unreasonable levels - are the stripes on a zebra (pedestrian) crossing black or white ? - they are, of course, both (what ever the base colour of the road is). Getting back on track, people become who they are because of nature (I guess, hard wiring) and nurture (subsequent programming). For some of life, both these processes are happening together (more hard wiring in the womb, more programing as an adult). This, in part explains why proponents of either side are unable to prove things one way or the other.

Each human ends up different for these reasons. So we have (to all intents and purposes) an infinite number of people who are all different. How do we make sense of that ? We use another human trait called categorising. In a way it's a defence mechanism to stop our poor little brains from being overloaded with numbers that make no sense, but it also has a useful purpose when we have to interact with the world. People are like the stars and galaxies - there's an infinite number, and they're all different. But, it's convenient for us to put them into groups so that we can make generalised statements about one group that don't apply necessarily to the others.

So, where does that leave me and my arguement (and you, the poor people working your way through this post !) ? Firstly, sex and gender are different things (though they mostly co-incide). Secondly, characteristics form paterns that are shaped BOTH by hard-wiring and programing. Thirdly, individual characteristics (or groups of them) are more easily distinguishable by a majority of people in one gender or the other (the third gender in humans is a bit of a special case as the intention is usually to display the characteristics of both and neither).

So, some characteristics can be said to be more typical of one gender or the other. Agression and confrontation are more typically associated with the male gender. Bitchiness and gossiping are more typically associated with the female gender (trying to be even handed, here !). Obviously, there are positives too: logical thought is often considered male, and multi-tasking is considered female. Let me state again, that this is not a strictly sexual divide, and as with all generic rules, doesn't apply to every individual. I think I should also point out here, that cultural backgrounds are part of the nurture, so what I've described here is more typical in a modern western culture, than an eastern or tribal culture (for example).

I feel I have a special interest in all this. I changed jobs a few months back, and ended up filling in lots of application and discrimination monitoring forms along the way. Some asked my gender - easy = female. Others asked my sex, to which I answered in characteristic honesty "genetic male, gender female". I have made a consious choice to live in a female role - it was not an accident of birth. Unlike many others who have crossed over (either way), I didn't got through my early life feeling I was in the wrong gender role (there was no doubt about my physical sex). It wasn't until my mid-twenties that I had ANY inkling that I wasn't fitting in with my (male) peers, mostly in terms of attitude, feelings etc. Many more years elapsed before I even considered changing my life (and they included a marriage and a wonderful daughter).

Basing my next statement on what I have read and heard, and the other 'tv' and 'ts' people I've met over the years, I am an unusual transsexual (not my definition of me, I define me as a woman). Im unusual because I've lived and functioned quite happily in BOTH gender roles. I have seen the debate from both sides - I've BEEN on both sides. I fit in perfectly well where I am now - most people assume I AM a female unless I tell them otherwise. That's partly to do with dress and looks, but so much more because of the characteristics I display, the way I am with people socially, the way I am with people at work (I'm the principal computer manager in my organisation, managing people and contracts). Even those I work with closely (who all know about me) TREAT me like a female - this is ot because I am one, but because I display (naturally, I should add) 'typically' female characteristics. How much is it to do with hard-wiring and/or programming ? I was one of five children, and my two brothers don't feel the same as I do, so how much nurture was it ?

My case above may not have been logical (I started with no particular plan), but I hope everyone will find it reasonable. My principal work skill is being a problem-solver. I don't do it by banging heads together, but by trying to understand all sides and all options, then by reasonably and pragmatically choosing what seems at the time to be the best solution. When I've fulfilled my (self-imposed) goals in 3 or 4 years, I will move on. I refuse to be held back by gender or any other prejuduces, or what characteristics a male-gender-dominated society would impose on me because I'm a woman. As with this job, I will get the next one quite simply because I'm the best PERSON for the job. I will marshall all my (typically) female characteristics to my best advantage, and advantage I'm likely to have over all the male candidates !

Tefkat: Your talks about how you raised your children made me think about the Dharma & Greg TV-show. It seems like the way they would have raised Dharma
I also remember Dharma talking about how her parents wouldn´t give her dolls, because they didn´t want to force any gender roles on her. So she dressed her little garbage truck up in a dress I think there is also some gender roles that you´re born with, that aren´t imposed on you. I just don´t think you can give them such clear definitions as agcB tried to do. It wasn´t the generalizations I had anything against, you had to do that. But the idea that they could be so easily defined.

Just watched X-files on TV where they had a manhunt going for Mulder. If the people on this thread had their way would they have had to say humanhunt?

Nikki-D,

I am proud to be part of h2g2 with you. Thank you for your post in this thread.

***B

Nikki-D:

I'm glad you (seem to) understand the concept of grammatical gender. So few English-speakers do.

That's a rather interesting form-filling habit. I always fill in the "race" blank "human", as the whole concept of race is a bunch of crap anyway--but that's another thread topic.

Other than that, I've really no response to your post.

--Cooper,
mourning and yet seeing the benefits of topic-drift

Xanatic

I have just read your post again, and there is something I am missing here:

'I just don´t think you can give them such clear definitions as agcB tried to do. It wasn´t the generalizations I had anything against, you had to do that. But the idea that they could be so easily defined'

You are making a distinction which just went whizzing past my head and out the window behind me.

Can you explain a little more please?

a thicko called Ben

Nikki-D: I would like to echo agcB. Thank you for sharing your humanity with us.

Cooper: I meant testosterone causes aggression.
Men generally have more testosterone than women.
QED

Actually I thought agcB's post was succinct, erudite and sensible.
Elegantly simple examples Ben

Xanatic: I was a pacifist, so I didn't let them have guns. As soon as they encountered the concept the boys started making them out of sticks etc

...hmmm, thank you Tefkat, but I am interested in Xanatic's differentiation: there is something I am missing here. Xanatic always thinks like a razor, and I want to follow his thought.

when do you get a functional kitchen again, btw?

a girl called Ben