h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

It is easy to get defensive about diet choices. It is difficult to come up with unassailable reasons for those choices that don't end up in hair-splitting arguments about what exactly you are avoiding and why.

In my experience it boils down to 'because I don't want to' - an aesthetic choice with which there can be no rebuttal.

Often vegetarianism is portrayed as avoiding butchered meat and fish, with some implication that it is inhumane to kill and eat other animals. Sometimes this goes beyond the butchering to the practices used in domesticating and raising animals for food (eg fish farms, veal production). One good reason rarely put forward is the massive energy loss implicit in adding stages to the food chain - I vaguely recall some figure like ten kilos of grain are needed to produce one kilo of protein - though it could be more inefficient than that.

If you want to convince a meat eater that the vegetarian option can be rather good, and extend beyond cheese omelettes and nut roasts I would suggest:

Make sure the meal is tasty - the first veggie meal I endured was salt-free and I gagged at the unaccustomed blandness.

My favourites are things like
small crisp baked rounds of bread topped with goats cheese (or hummous), chopped tomatoes and pesto,
creamy potato and watercress soup (with fresh bread and butter),
roasted vegetables (aubergine, red onion, cherry tomatoes, courgettes, sweet potato and butternut squash all diced into large chunks drizzled with olive oil and seasoned) served with cous cous and harissa sauce (and maybe some more goats cheese or feta)
desserts are mostly vegetarian but I'd opt for fresh soft fruit.

Caractacus

If you wear leather, you are contributing money to an industry that kills animals.

If you drink milk or eat cheese or yoghurt, you are directly responsible for the slaughter of dairy herd calves (the milk industry in the UK alone produces them in thousands each year, if they're not raised for veal, they are slaughtered at birth).

Vegans have the courage of their convictions. Vegetarians pass off sqeamishness as ethics.

A. Carnivore.

Cows are artificially inseminated these days so if a calf is born it's for a reason. Anyway, I buy organic dairy products to ensure that the cows my milk, cheese, etc comes from are well treated.

The main problem today is factory farming. If farmers went back to the way things were done before they started feeding cows with dead sheep, etc, there'd be less crap in the food chain, the animals would not be pushed to 'produce' and would therefore be happier and ultimately food would taste good. Do you actually realise how much food goes to waste? Farmers are actually paid not to produce anything because there is far too much!

"Vegans have the courage of their convictions. Vegetarians pass off sqeamishness as ethics."

*Some* vegetarians pass off squeamishness as ethics, some don't. Does there have to be an ethical reason for such a diet choice?

If it came to it, I would eat meat to survive, I know very few vegetarians (and vegans come to that) who wouldn't.


"A. Carnivore."

Surely you don't *just* eat meat?!

If it was a matter of life and death I'd eat meat too, although I'd hate every minute of it!

To the person who said something about vegetarianism only making a dent in company profits if it happens en masse: that's the point! I'm happy to be just one of "en masse" and it's up to everyone else to decide if they want to be too. Political parties, ideologies, religions, revolutions etc only really work if people follow them en masse, but small groups of people still take part because they believe in their cause and gain some comfort from knowing that they're doing their bit.

Meganargo, hello.

You're right, of course - it's only "some" vegetarians who claim an ethical dimension, and it is with these that I have my beef (sorry, couldn't resist). I have a relative (who is pretty sound) who doesn't eat meat because she doesn't like the taste. I have no problem with this choice.

I just get tired of being told that meat-eating is wrong by people who claim ethical superiority but can't present a coherent case for what, in the end, is just their preference.

If someone claims that killing an animal to eat is wrong, can it be less wrong to kill an animal in the name of fashion, or to provoke its mother to produce milk?

While I disagree with vegans, I can respect their logic. And, of course, I'm an omnivore; I choose now to eat free-range (preferably organic) meat, eggs and dairy produce (including British, not Dutch-crate, veal) and have cut down the quantity.

To my mind, this is a better, more ethical and certainly more consistant way of living than claiming an ethical dimension to avoiding red meat whilst eating intensively farmed chicken, eggs, fish and dairy.

re: "To my mind, this is a better, more ethical and certainly more consistant way of living than claiming an ethical dimension to avoiding red meat whilst eating intensively farmed chicken, eggs, fish and dairy"

Better: who's to say?

More ethical: in what way? How has eating meat become ethical?

More consistant: um... well, if you do it every day. I eat veggie stuff every day, so surely I'm equally consistant?

I think most veggies/vegans hate the 'meat is murder!' brigade. People always have and always will eat meat - we *are* omnivores, after all - and if you can't accept that, that's your problem.

However, I still disagree with people who call themselves vegetarian and still eat white meat. IT'S STILL MEAT

"Better: who's to say?" - Ok, this is my viewpoint (as I think I said).

"More ethical: in what way? How has eating meat become ethical?" If a vegetarian eats products of intensive rearing, they are contributing to animal suffering - unless it's just the eating of the animal that is wrong, not the suffering of the animal eaten.

"More consistant: um... well, if you do it every day. I eat veggie stuff every day, so surely I'm equally consistant?" See above, I'm referring to consistancy of thought and argument. If a vegetarian chooses not to eat meat, but eats dairy, eggs (and fish and chicken in some cases) and claims their diet is ethically superior, I want more evidence than just a "meat is murder" slogan.

"Better: who's to say?" - Ok, this is my viewpoint (as I think I said)."
Fair enuff

"More ethical: in what way? How has eating meat become ethical?" If a vegetarian eats products of intensive rearing, they are contributing to animal suffering - unless it's just the eating of the animal that is wrong, not the suffering of the animal eaten."

Whereas eating the meat that's been tortured and killed justifies it? I'm sure most (politically motivated) veggies do their best to avoid battery farmed, hormonally altered stuff too. A step in the right direction strikes me as better than no step in the right direction.

"More consistant: um... well, if you do it every day. I eat veggie stuff every day, so surely I'm equally consistant?" See above, I'm referring to consistancy of thought and argument. If a vegetarian chooses not to eat meat, but eats dairy, eggs (and fish and chicken in some cases) and claims their diet is ethically superior, I want more evidence than just a "meat is murder" slogan."

Ok, but trying to do what you believe is right seems more important to me than maintaining consistency. As I said before, anything you can do to make it clear to the meat industry that their methods are unacceptable is better than just carrying on regardless because it's more consistent to do so. Even being vegetarian for a day per week, if we all did it, would make a statement.

IntelligentMoose.

We're never going to agree on this as, unless I'm mistaken, you believe that eating animals is necessarily wrong and I don't. In some respects, though, I don't think our positions are quite so far apart as would appear.

In one of my posts, I mentioned that I have cut down on eating meat. I also recall saying that I only now eat meat ethically reared, and try to avoid produce of intensive farming. That is the signal I'm sending out to "the market" - intensive farming is unacceptable.

I also mentioned that I don't have any problem with vegans or, for that matter, with vegetarians who accept that avoiding eating meat whilst consuming products of animal slaughter is not consistant with claiming the moral high ground.

I have great respect for people who care about animal welfare, whether vegan, vegetarian or omnivore. My argument is with (and only with) vegetarians who assume that they are ethically superior whilst consuming products of intensive farming (oh, and people who call themselves "vegetarians" while eating meat and fish).

I just tell "ethically superior" vegetarians to bog off and take another look at their beliefs, basically

I'm an omnivore.
It's what my dentition and digestive system expects of me.

Too much meat, or a meat heavy diet, can do some pretty rough things to you. As can a plant heavy diet. But these days we have the luxury of being able to choose.

I was forced to go Vegetarian for a while, having basically run out of money, meat and dairy at the same time. When the money returned I discovered that I was sticking with the vegetarian diet out of choice because it was easier and cleaner. However I was waylaid by a bacon sandwich and within weeks had returned to eating meat more or less regularly.

Being a vegetarian didn't make me feel any better or worse but I did discover some good places to eat that served vegetarian food (Cafe Iguana, Reading, for one. And there was a great place in Huddersfield, near the station) and discovered that I was less stressed about shopping generally. These days I find a varied diet works best for me but it's clear to me that I don't need or want meat at every meal every day and if it went away entirely I wouldn't miss it too badly.

I'm omnivorous. I don't hate vegans, vegetarians, ova-vegetarians at all. Why, if it was a matter of life and death I'd probably even eat one of them too (but only if they were already dead or slaughtered humanely, of course )!

Ecologically, humans are nothing more than one more animal on this planet. Their greatest evil is not eating meat - it's changing the whole environment. Every time humans do something to change their world to make it better for themselves, they eradicate some animal species along the line. If you turn a meadow into a cultivated field to grow your precious veggies (remember I eat them too!) you remove another meadow that USED to support life for any number of insects, small rodents, rabbits, the raptors that fed off them, etc.etc. That pathway you paved separated earth from the sunlight that it used to grow plants and weeds that fed something.

Our very presence on this earth is eradicating thousands of animals every day. We humans are breeding all other animals out of existence! Recognise it...acknowledge it...and do something every day to reverse it - even in a small way.

How? Don't have that third kid (less people). Don't drive the car to work - walk instead or pool. Dont fly to the other side of the world for that "do-no-evil" eco-holiday...the jet-fuel pollution is going to give your great-grandchild skin cancer.

Whatever you do, every day, try and damage this little planet of ours a little as you can. Eat only what you need, from what's available around you. How much pollution is involved in getting that beautiful ripe fruit around the world to your grocer?

I am African. If I hunger and need meat I can, will and have killed an animal for it's flesh. As I cut it's flesh from the bone I gave thanks to the one who put it there for me to eat. What I did not take for my nourishment and that of my family, I gave back to the rest of the veld - the hyena, the vulture, the jackal, the crow, the fly and the ant. All of them ate gladly of the excess and they thrived.

When I die, if I die in the bush, leave my flesh and bones to these humble animals to feed from and my spirit will smile as I look down on them. If you must, then bury me in soil so the worms and the earth can leetch nourishment from my decomposition. If you must, cremate my body and grind my bones, but then dig a hole, toss in the grey flakes and chips and plant a tree on top of me!

Let not my passing go un-utilised by this earth...

I can't remember who said this, but it's 100% spot on:

"Not every environmentalist is a vegetarian, but every vegetarian is an environmentalist"

Didn't take it as a personal attack. I suppose what I'm learning is that "veggies" like churchgoers, have many different belief systems - there are liberals, conservatives, fundamentalists and nutters (no pun intended!) etc. It's hard for a plain old carnivore like me to want to go "veggie" when I don't have an ethical problem about eating meat, and so don't share the belief that it is "wrong" to eat meat. I certainly have an issue about the quality of what I'm eating, and that makes me apprehensive about some intensive farming methods. I eat a lot less meat now than I did when I lived with my parents, but that has more to do with choice, and health considerations than any anti-meat producer stance.

If you knew I wasn't veggie, would you make me a meat dish if I came to your house for a meal?

I would, but seeing as all I could do you was bacon you'd have to show me how

"Not every environmentalist is a vegetarian, but every vegetarian is an environmentalist"

It would be interesting to test the truth of that statement.

How much land could be turned over to environmental reclamation, or returned to the wild, if it wasn't being used to farm meat?

Quote
"If you take vegetarianism to its logical conclusion, you shouldn't even breathe, as millions of living things (eg bacteria) perish under the onslaught of your immune system. It's just a case of where you draw the line."
Unquote


..well said .. !


(finally)



YOU being the appropriate ..


make your own rules ..


"You are all individuals .. "
"YES, WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS .. .. .."!!!!




Be Happy ..


It's All Good ..


"Whatever" (Happens, Happens) ..




"To enquire into the nature of the ending of time requires a silent mind, a mind that is free to observe, not frightened, free to observe the movement of time in yourself, how you depend on it...."

J Krishnamurti
Colombo
9th November 1980