h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

OK, this is a serious Journal entry by my standards. It will be a long slab of text with hardly any pictures. As only a few people read what I write at the best of times I might not reach a large audience, but at least I'll have said my piece.

There are a number of issues here.

1. Trolls

Hootoo has never been troll-free, but there is currently a disproportionate number of active trolls onsite. There are categories of trolls:

Blatant trolls - the sort who are just rude and nasty for the sake of being rude and nasty. These are easily yikesed.

Nasty little bigots - these are also easily yikesed when they're being overt, but the rest of the time they're on standby waiting for their chance to be offensive. The really clever ones manage to do this while staying within the House Rules. With any luck we'll lose some of these during the site move (and no, I don't mean Taff - he's a naughty little boy, but he does generally mean well).

Wind-up merchants - there's a current case which a lot of you will have noticed. This is idiotic behaviour from a usually-respectable source, and with any luck it will blow over soon.

Insidious trolls - This is the worst case; most postings are within the House Rules and there's nothing that's strictly yikesable, but the effect of these people is to reduce the ability of others to participate onsite. In one case, this has gone on for years. I am sick to death of having to stay out of threads because this individual is there, sprouting various lines of drivel. The current line is the poor-little-me line, in which the troll complains of being bullied and is apparently *believed* by otherwise intelligent and alert people who haven't seen the whole sorry saga unfold.

Shrewd readers will have worked out that it's this category of troll, the insidious troll, that bothers me the most. For years now - years, literally - I have had my ability to use hootoo curtailed by such a person. There are no grounds for yikesing individual postings, and I'll only get attacked (and thus have something to yikes) if I get too close, and I genuinely do not have the energy for a fight (I can even produce a doctor's report to that effect). There are other cases like this; I am not unique in having such a shadow fall across hootoo, though the identity of the troll varies.

This brings me to...

2. Moderation policy

In the new world, there must - I stress, MUST - be scope for the Mods, in collaboration with the Eds, to consider the whole career of a researcher who has been the subject of repeated complaints, especially if the complaints come from more than one source.

There must be a mechanism for a researcher to contact the Mods to initiate the discussion, even if the initial contact is with a generic 'Mods' email address and the person responding on behalf of the Mods is not an identifiable individual. This is sorely lacking at the moment.

All moderation must be undertaken in context. In the new world this will be possible, and indeed will be the default, but I will keep saying it to remind people of the fact that context is absolutely crucial.

The Mods must be anonymous. This is the only effective way to ensure that responses to moderation are not coloured by responses to the individual(s) responsible for the modding. The Mods must appear to be omnipresent and omniscient - though not necesarily monolithic. Having a channel to ask Mods general questions would be great for internal Public Relations.

I know there are some who say that the Mods should have their identities known onsite, even if moderation actions aren't attributable. I couldn't agree less.

3. Why I can't participate effectively in 'public' threads on issues to do with the new site

There are a couple of reasons.

I did volunteer to help on noohootoo, but had to withdraw because of a conflict with my employment. Essentially, as 'an officer of the Commonwealth of Australia holding an office of profit () under the Crown', I can't also be an officer of another entity that is governed by the rules of a foreign state. This withdrawal from volunteering has of necessity deprived me of the chance to enter the major discussions about noohootoo on Noesis.

Now, not everyone has that level of access to discussions, but a lot of other people don't have to contend with being 10 hours ahead of most of the participants. Also, I only have a couple of hours on a typical day in which I can be online and involved, and that's only the case if I have no other commitments. (As it happens I've been sick for two and a half months now; this has give me more time online. Silver lining, of a sort, though a bit tarnished.) The upshot of all this is that anything I say in response to a discussion on hootoo tends to get overlooked because it's a response to yesterday's news.

I know that kea, one of the best and clearest thinkers on hootoo, has to contend with a 12-hour time difference. I admire her skill in keeping up with things. Sadly, my life doesn't allow either for that level of involvement or the ability to plug into hootoo whenever the moment seems right. (Note to everyone: make sure you listen to kea.)

I did speak up on an issue or two on Noesis, but I'm not convinced anyone was listening. If I'd been online with everyone else I might have been better heard. As it is, I think I might have been talking to thin air for the most part.

If noohootoo wants to be a global site, everyone needs to remember the time difference thing. Not everyone is in GMT, GMT + 1 or in the US/Canada. There's more to the world than that. If decisions are to be made, everyone must have the opportunity to have a say.

Also, nobody should be derided as a mere colonial. This has happened to me in Peer Review, and it goes part of the way to explaining why I haven't put anything in there for years and why I don't even comment any more. (I get paid to write, by the way. Well-balanced, carefully crafted prose, unlike Journal posts where I just slap words onto a page.) The new site has to get away from this sort of crud, with UK residents/nationals assuming that they somehow have more right to participate than a 'colonial' or another sort of foreigner. (My experiences in PR left me feeling proud not to have any UK ancestry whatsoever.) Yes, it will be run under UK law - it has to be run under someone's law - but that's only an administrative issue. Under the Beeb's rule, hootoo has come dangerously close to being 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Home Counties'. Noohootoo has to steer away from this perversion and restore internationality to the place.

My professional role at the moment is essentially that of a go-between, trying to broker agreement on arcane issues between employer groups, unions, two non-sovereign governments and seven sovereign governments, all while avoiding being mentioned in the media. I'm inclined to believe that some of the skills required for this job could be of use to noohootoo - but it has to be unofficial as I can't sign up to be bound by foreign laws or by a foreign entity. If anyone thinks I have something useful to put forward, there's an email address on my PS, or I can be PM'd on Noesis.

4. Why do I bother speaking at all?

Because I care to some extent.

But is there any reason for me to stay? Will noohootoo cage the trolls, keep a close eye on the insidious malicious ones, restore credibility to PR, and look beyond the UK's shores when considering its members and their needs?

Will noohootoo listen to all of us, not just those who were able to sign up for active voluntary service?

Should I stay? Is there any point to staying? Will noohootoo be sufficient reason to stay? The jury's out.

I have to respond to this- but I can't at the moment. But I wanted to in a way, and also to let you know that I care whether you stay or go. Also, that largely thanks to kea (and Ben), I care more, want to stick around more and want to contribute more than I have in 5-6 years.

I would love to sign on for voluntary service, but right now nothing is needed that matches my skills or my availability.

More later...

Thanks Pc.

(I owe you an email, and I'll get there soon.)

don't you dare bugger off Ivan - nuff said!

It is possible of course that you are read more widely than you realise.

Your journal, for instance, is one of the (dwindling) reasons why I continue to visit H2G2.

I, for one, would miss you and your contributions. I don't necessarily always agree with your viewpoint(s) etc, but since when did that matter?

I'm not very active here nowadays, and even when I was I think that my usual 'hunting grounds' were a bit removed from where the trolls tend to stay - which is basically to say (in too many words) that I'm lucky not to have run into this phenomenon here. But your suggestions sound reasonable.
And most of all, I'm another person who will be sad to see you go.

Fantastic post Ivan I also really hope you stay and find a way of being here that's good for you (and that the site sorts it possum droppings out in this regard).

From my little bit of lurking on the EG side of things at noesis, there is a very strong intention for internationality (I actually made the case for keeping UK English as the standard for the EG and was roundly ignored ). I've noticed an increasing tendancy to pull out the bbc licence fee card of late but I put that down to the general mean spiritedness that's a bit dominant currently.

I think there is plenty of volunteer work you could help with that doesn't require you to sign up to anything. In fact we need more help with things so if you do feel like it please get involved again


I get what you mean about the time zone. I've done some pretty late nights this week

>>The new site has to get away from this sort of crud, with UK residents/nationals assuming that they somehow have more right to participate than a 'colonial' or another sort of foreigner.<<

That's very true. I hope some of it will go away when it's no longer "I pay a licence fee so you only use hootoo thanks to me, underlings!" - and at least acknowledging that other languages exist and can be understood by a wide variety of people would help, too.

That's where I really hope this volunteer translator scheme takes off. The Guide is very anglocentric at the moment. The most interesting articles are usually those on a topic you've never heard of, rather than the navel-gazing ones more closely examining something common But PR reviewers tend to assume people are stupid/can't write merely because they're not good at writing in *English* - they might be brilliant in seven other languages! So allowing them to ask for help in translating it and then sending it to PR that way should be a great step forward.

At the moment we have some very loud, big fish in the teeny tiny puddle that has become active h2g2. There are two things needed - one, to turn that puddle into a pond, and second, to keep the loud fish from drowning out the rest of us.

Hopefully once we have the keys we can start doing something about it.

I'd be sad to lose you, even though I share your sentiment. Sometimes I wonder why I bother with this place, the angst and so on, but I do have a lot of faith that it will get better after the move has settled down.

What always confused me about the "I pay my license fee" thing was that I pay my cable bill and my cable company pays BBC for content. So at that.

I still don't have sufficient time to properly respond to some of the thoughts in the OP that I'd like to, but with regard to the insidious troll, the one who stays just within the Rules but is clearly being disruptive and nasty... you'll know I had a bad time with someone like that here several years ago, Ivan. It still ticks me off that they got away with it and as a result, my enjoyment and interest in the site waned to its current level. But it's become clear after seeing others do it, that they're just literally crying out for attention, any attention. If they can't get the ego stroking they want, then at least if they can succeed in turning people against them, they can pull their martyr routine. If constructive people leave the site as a result of their behavior, then it's giving them the ultimate ego boost- don't do it!

I've never really understood the license fee line either, I think anyone using it needs a visit from Sho and her slapping hand.

Been browsing a few other threads and something 2legs said has really hit the nail on the head: there's too many hand-wringing conversations about the new site - worries about what it'll be like and arguments about what might or might not be in place. It's understandable I guess but it's not going to achieve anything.

I think what the consortium has achieved is incredible and the technical useful threads have been kept together very well so it's not those threads I'm talking about, it's the others. There's also a general air of listlessness and people are reacting to that in different ways, and a substantial contingent (well, me) are reacting to this by being being wind-up merchants or showing little restraint and others are running around spreading woe: it's making the place less fun right now. It'll pass, these little spats blow up and calm down all the time here, but I'd hate for a newbie to come along right now.

Dearest Ivan,

Had I the time and energy
an answer I could give to thee
regarding what may come to be
a troll-less site for you and me

Alas, I don't - so stay
is all I have to say

Cards on the table here, I have no axe to grind, either here in old h2g2 or in the new h2g2. The only reason I still check in is so's to keep up with Profs journal re his sons accident. I have enough to worry about in real life with ongoing serious complications to a long standing medical issue and can do without the sort of nonesense thats gone on here in the past few weeks or more.

I do care enough to want hootoo to succeed in its future endeavours though, me being there won't make any difference one way or the other so as an 'outsider' here's my 2 cents for what its worth.
Ivan's been a damm sight more diplomatic than I would have been and in that vain I'm not going to say what I really think of the 3 or 4 people who's behaviour is clear for all to see, suffice to say what I'm about to post is just my view on things as I see them.

Using mental and physical health conditions as some sort of excuse for bad behaviour is frankly, offensive to those with genuine conditions. The blatant lies and deceipt by a tiny, nay, minute, minority is unforgivable and need treating with the contempt it deserves. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT.
I put myself in the place of a newbie just signing up to hootoo and look at what this site is supposed to be about. What do I see? Thread after thread in the most prominent parts of hootoo with grief, hassle, strife and behaviour worse than in a kids playground. If I were someone looking to 'invest' in noohootoo, whether in time or money, I would, seeing whats gone off here of late, run a mile.
There are a lot of ways views/opinions/suggestions and debates can be held re any issue relating to the forthcoming move. Sensible, reasoned debate can and is needed,(even been had), we're not robots, we have views, we have emotions etc but that doesn't mean a free for all resulting in ill feeling, tempers flaring and people flouncing off in a strop. As for the few who regularly say, 'they're out to get me' or 'its just cos it's me and you don't like me', you need to get a grip. If you feel that way, step back, look at what you are doing and ask yourself, if you spoke to or treated someone, like that in real life, would you be pleased with yourself?
The way some have behaved on here, if anyone spoke to me like that in RL they'd probably be tasting hospital food for a while.

The golden rule seems to have been forgotten here, "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS"
Trolls don't like to be ignored and soon tire of their ways. Don't be lured into giving your e-mail out thinking by going 'offline' you might change the habit/behaviour, it doesn't work like that, you leave yourself open to being stalked then. If a troll is in a particular thread and you need to reply, make a point of saying, "in reply to post no.#" thereby ignoring the trolls posting and it'll soon be clear to them they're being ignored.

My final bit of 'advice' is simple, chill out, get back to being a family site again, lets have some fun, lets be serious when needed but most importantly of all, PLEASE, enjoy this unique website, both here in the time left at the beeb and in noohootoo when it starts, there ARE NO ALTERNATIVES out there. (don't get me started on FB and Twitter)
I shall now retire to my 'lurkalot' mode.
ttfn
BMT

Ivan,

If all right thinking people desert, then what is left won't be worth all the effort that has been put in to save the site.

Please don't go, give it time.

Websailor

I can't really add much on language, timezone, fees, volunteering and all that, since I have had and still have my own issues with all that.
But trolls... More than once I've thought of starting an anti-troll agency here. Rescue rangers or whatever. I saw it working brilliantly once (though with a very simple troll) and I think it is possible.
Then there would be a lot to do the fighting without fighting for the people who.. erm... need it. Or something in that line.

(The troll trolling was going on here: F55017?thread=378581&skip=0&show= Good fun, that one.)

BMT, I second that.

Websailor

Hati, what's an anti-troll agency?

Read the initial post bought not the backlog yet.

I'll be back once I'm not so tired.

Oh, nothing too serious. I once had a problem with annoying troll and I asked some of my friends to come and help me in the situation. It was in 2004 but I still remember the case as a hilarious episode in my miserable life of those days. They just turned anything he did or (rather said) into a joke, in a quite tender and sweet way.
It wasn't really a serious proposal or for bob's sake nothing that should be official thing. More like the scape-goat service, as it is. Or was. Well, it's all 2legs fault anyway.

Sounds like a brilliant idea Hati