h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Apathy is just the tip of the iceburg for some people.

If apathy is a visible front surrounded by a host of other troubling symptoms, it could be a case of clinical depression. According to the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (1994, fourth edition), symptoms of depression include:

•Fatigue or loss of energy

•Markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or most, daily activities

•Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness

Sound familiar? Of course! But apathy by itself is hardly equal to depression. The general guideline is that a person must exhibit five or more of the telltale symptoms for at least two weeks in order for an expert to diagnose clinical depression.

The others symptoms are:

•Depressed mood as indicated by either subjective report (e.g. feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g. appears tearful). Children and adolescents may exhibit irritability.

•Significant weight changes (e.g. a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite

•Insomnia or hypersomnia (sleeping too much)

•Psychomotor agitation or retardation

•Feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt

•Recurrent thoughts of death, recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide.

Those who have recently lost a loved one should exhibit symptoms for at least two months before diagnosis, since bereavement is a natural process that does not equal depression per se.

Someone with clinical depression is best served by seeking help for their entire condition rather than trying to conquer their apathy directly. The most common treatment includes psychotherapy and/or prescribed medications, though many alternatives also exist.

For diagnosis and assistance, one should seek out a family doctor, psychotherapist, or any similar certified counseler.

I mentioned on another thread about apathy that a lot of people exhibiting these symptoms could also have some form of depression happening.

I got pooh-poohed for my efforts.

So, glad to ready your posting.

az

oops - to READ your posting (must learn to preview . . .)

You were quite right to speak up, azahar.

In fact, a small percentage of people who have clinical depression initially go to their doctor complaining of fatigue. In other cases, people who suspect they have clinical depression (and are later proven correct) are accused by their doctors, family, or friends of being merely apathetic. They're told to buck up and get on with things, when they're in no position to do so emotionally or physically.

Not taking it seriously can be dangerous! In a worst case scenario, a failure to disgnose depression could lead to a person eventually committing suicide who might have been treated instead. So including information on depression in this entry *might* just save a life.

it almost sounds as if i might be depressed looking at those! but i'm perfectly happy, to be honest...no suicidal tendencies whatsoever...i guess it's only occasionally i experience any of those (except the sleeping a lot ) which must be kinda normal...mustn't it?

^. .^
= ' =
Guru
CommunityArtist

hi Fragilis,

Well, I don't think that being apathetic (showing little or no emotion or interest in the world around you) is the sign of a healthy person. In fact, I questioned people on the other thread about this. Anyhow.

Given that the etymology for this word comes from a mixture of Latin and Greek, this word came into existence long before people understood about the concept of clinical depression. So perhaps apathy is just an old outdated term for depression, as it exhibits many of the same characteristics.

az

I've been through depression (warning: don't go there!),
and I've been through apathy, and I think there really
is a difference. A person could be apathetic about
a job that they've had for 30 years, but still enjoy
ice cream, walks in the park, and the smell of irises
on a nice Spring day. A truly depressed person *might*
fail to respond to any of the above.

hi Paul,

Good. Another take on what apathy means. I don't think I have ever suffered from depression per se, though I am pretty anxiety ridden a lot of the time (which I am told is just the other side of the depression coin). Whatever.

I have only been apathetic - in a serious way - once in my life. I stopped eating, just couldn't be bothered participating in my own life. After awhile I realised this was not a good thing, so I started 'pretending' as if things mattered to me and behaving as if things mattered. For example, I started making nice meals for myself and ate them, even though I didn't feel like eating at all. And I made a point of going out with friends even though it was the last thing I felt like doing. And after a couple of weeks of this something basic inside of me 'clicked back in' and started working again. So the positive behaviour patterns, even though I knew I was just pretending, were strong enough to get me back into my life again. It was like the rest of me just needed me to start behaving like I truly wanted to live and participate in my own life again. After that, I was fine. Well, sorta!

Probably, like everything else, there are many different levels of apathy.

az

I think I went through something like that
with movies. I used to go to see a movie
once a week. Then in the mid-1990s I decided
I was not enjoying this any more, so I just
stopped. About a year ago, I realized that
I missed movies, so I've gone back to seeing
them again. If you get in too much of a rut,
it's probably good to get out of it for a while
and then see if there is anything you miss
about the old habit you were in.

Paul,

Maybe your ambivalence towards movies was justly founded. I used to be a total cinema maniac. LOVED films so much. And in the past ten years I found that more often than not films were somehow constantly disappointing. Almost as if this form of artistic expression had reached its zenith and was now just turning into a way for studios to make money.

Even though I don't tend to see the typical Hollywood blockbuster films. But even the independent films were becoming all 'samey' and tired. Still, this could just be a phase. Have seen a few good things recently that have renewed my interest in films.

az

Hi there chaps -

I hope you don't mind if I join your conversation! I think that what you're saying about depression being linked to apathy is very true. I wouldn't expect someone who was apathetic to automatically be depressed, but if they were depressed, I wouldn't be surprised if they were apathetic. I think one of the things depressed people normally do is that they think they're a downer to other people, so, even in company, they hide themselves away a bit. That can look a bit like apathy.

Apparently the incidence of depression doesn't change very much through time or culture, so I think it's probably a human thing rather than an environmental thing. Because people were talking about it here, I had a look in the dictionary at the root of apathy. It's quite interesting, and shows to my mind that the Greeks knew what they were talking about. The root is a (without) + pathos (pity), and it should be noted that the root of pathos is patheme, pain. In Aristotle's Poetics, he says that the aim of tragedy is to create feelings of pity (pathos) and terror, and to remove these with catharsis. So, if you're apathetic, it means in this sense that you're unmoved by tragedy. It's hard to find a good definition of catharsis, so I think I'm going to settle on 'the opposite of apathy'. And I think it points up the fallacy of just trying to achieve a pain-free life. William Blake said 'Joy and Woe are woven fine [together]'. I say, life is something that you've got to scab your knees upon!

BB

Hey, I suffer from clinical depression and I'd agree it ain't an easy thing to live with. I tried to post an entry about it on Peer Review the other week, but it ended up in the wrong place... just what a depressive needs....

Part of the problem with depression is other people, who tend to ask what I'm depressed about (oh, great...) or tell me to pull myself together (yeah...) or who get frightened because hey, this is Mental Illness and it's scarey...

Oh, and doctors who just prescribe Prozac...

The best advice I was given was by a doctor I eventually found who suffered from it himself. He told me that my particular form of depression is caused by a lack of serotonin - just an ordinary hormone - which my body just happens not to produce. Very similar to having diabetes*, except I don't have inject myself. He gave me lots of other tips to beat depression (and depression related apathy) too...



* I'm not making light of diabetes here - my partner is diabetic - but at least diabetes is understood by most people. Depression ain't.

hi Binaryboy and Cati Bach,

Welcome to the thread. Was about to say 'the more the merrier', hmmm. . . perhaps just 'the more' then

I think depression is still amazingly 'not understood' considering that it must have always been around. But one thing I have always wondered about are suicides as one has to be both extremely depressed and highly motivated to do this, and this is not a typical combination I think.

Not sure if I agree that someone who is apathetic is not suffering *some* form of depression.

And yes, often people who have never had depression themselves cannot begin to understand or help someone going through a bad time of it. Also, I think most people are just uncomfortable with what isn't 'normal' to them. So it makes sense, Cati, that someone you knew and trusted and who *also* suffered from depression was the person who has been able to help you the best.

Perhaps *because* depression often looks like apathy, this is another reason get impatient or cannot understand.

az

Um, the topic here was actually apathy,
not depression (except in the cases
where the two are somehow connected).
Still, people are less likely to ostracize
or marginalize you for being apathetic
than they would be if you admitted to depression.

There isn't a wonder drug like prozac for apathy.

Plus, apathy can be a political statement, which
makes it legitimate.

I don't really believe that apathy *in itself* can be a political statement. Boycotting an election on the grounds that you don't believe in any of the available candidates, or don't believe in democracy, *could* be seen as a statement, but it isn't much of one if you just sit at home and don't tell anyone why you're declining to vote.

I can strongly relate to previous postings about losing interest in your own life. I suffered from alcohol-related depression and lost all interest in the arts, which had previously been a lifelong passion. I stopped going to the movies and sold most of my CD collection to buy booze.

About a year ago I sobered up and began to feel alive again. Now I usually see at least one film a week, and I've even taken up acting myself. I've also rediscovered a keen interest in music. My new, rapidly-expanding CD collection has become a metaphor for my improving state of mental health!

Hi there Paul -

OK, I'll bite on that tasty bait. (damn, Ormondroyd, you seem to have beaten me to it!)

I like going off topic. I think it can be illuminating. 'Hey Mr Galileo' you might say, 'don't bother us with these stupid observations about the moons of Jupiter. We're talking about Man's place at the Centre of the Universe.'

Funny, isn't it. I think quite a lot of the time apathy is something you choose, whereas a depressive is something you are. But as you say depression is marginalized more. That's not really consistent. I only want to be judged on my choices. Oh well, one doesn't get that luxury very often.

One of the things about me being a depressive is that in response to that I've turned myself into someone who is over-motivated, if anything. Being apathetic (in the sense of lazy) is not a luxury I can allow myself, or my life just wouldn't be worth it. I'm very happy with that trade-off, and I don't care if it bothers other people.

Oh, if Sickle Cell Anaemia (to pick a disease at random) isn't a political statement, does that mean it's not legitimate?

It does strikes me though that there should be a better place to discuss depression than here. May I humbly suggest the most recent journal entry on my list in lieu of anywhere more appropriate?

Cheers,

BB

I like lots of the posts here. I like the idea of behaving as if you weren't apathetic and then clicking back into gear.

There is some talk currently about peole falling out of love. One of the responses to this is to behave as if you do love the person (talking mainly about long term relationships that are struggling rather than one night stands!). The action of behaving as if you love them can rekindle things inside and have the feeling return.

Some things I've done to get me past apathy:

Buy a kitchen timer. Set it for a short period of time and see how much of the hated chore you can get done in 5 minutes.

Go to bed early and get up early. This is very hard, much harder than it sounds. I found I "liked" night time more when feeling low. Don't go with it - aim to get to bed at a reasonable time and get up quite early. I find motivation is much better after a good, early night's sleep without idling too much in bed.