h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Analiese said: "I'll be happy to discuss it with you on any thread you find that interests you that specifically addresses those things okay?"

Fair enough. I was mostly interested in why/how your last statements were related to current foreign policy and the complex nature of treaties, both international and intranational, as it were. I've read through your page already (there's a lot there!) so I'll take this up again elsewhere. It really doesn't have much to do with Iraq - except maybe that no government can be trusted very much, but that's so common an observation it ought to be an axiom.


- JD

Indeed! For example, in today's Wall Street Journal, there is a report about the newly captured al-Quaeda operative that speaks openly about the application of torture by US our proxies; wait, wait, aren't we the champions of liberty, freedom, equality, diversity and most importantly human rights! what is most appalling is the ominous and loaded statement that "raids last September (about which never a word) netted us the two elementary age children" of this 'mastermind.' (shades of what was most derided about the SU, eh?) finally, but critically, what the governments seems to have forgotten: where is the definitive evidence linking Osama and al Quaeda with the 9-11 act? It has not ever been offered up only a rush of more indicted....

"where is the definitive evidence linking Osama and al Quaeda with the 9-11 act? It has not ever been offered up only a rush of more indicted...."

They're still religious fundamentalist terrorists who want to blow up anyone who believes in even slightly progressive values. Surely it's a good thing for liberty, equality et al that these people have been arrested.

And who else is going to carry out 9/11?

If you fight with the devil you become the devil perhaps?

I normaly try to stay out of posting here and try to limit myself to reading so I am not attacked in the manner another researcher was just a few posts back when one researcher did not agree with a aurgument 2 other researcers were having. I will however risk it here.

It is a definite fact that Al-quada led by Bin Laden is an enemy of the United States. There are numerous statements issued by Al-Quader and osama bin laden to show this to numerous sources. From what I saw on several videos he has made clear he was behind 911.

Even if he was not 100% behind 911 he has stated he and al-quada are enemys of the US. Has and will kill americans at any chance he has. In my opinion this gives the americans the right to go after osama and al-quader.

I will now go back to reading.

"They're still religious fundamentalist terrorists who want to blow up anyone who believes in even slightly progressive values. Surely it's a good thing for liberty, equality et al that these people have been arrested.

And who else is going to carry out 9/11?"

Thank you Zagreb, these statements pretty clearly sum up your manner of thinking to and your method of debate on the issues.

"It is a definite fact that Al-quada led by Bin Laden is an enemy of the United States."

no doubt about it. however, the fact that they are shown to be enemies does not automatically create guilt.

"There are numerous statements issued by Al-Quader and osama bin laden to show this to numerous sources. From what I saw on several videos he has made clear he was behind 911."

think trial in "the court of public opinion" facilitated and prosecuted by the doyens of the free and unbiased media is sufficent in finding a person guilty?

not much different from the roman circus just a different set of media, perhaps? thumbs up or thumbs down ... at least the public got to see it first hand then!!

birth, I *do* give Sally Struthers credit (as I do Sheryl Crow, Fred Durst, Jimmy Carter, Michael Moore, Madonna and various other Americans.) My point about '24', is that it's a *reflection* of how America currently sees itself, and equally important, how it wishes to be seen! (Or it wouldn't sell or promote '24' to overseas TV viewers (i.e., here)

Re CNN, jwf. A little story. I had a row with a local radio station about their skit on human shields who they said, 'were all going home, having realised - ooh, they could get hurt' (They were portrayed as a bunch of dope-smoking, brain-rotted Greenie hippies). I wanted to know where the radio station had got the story. CNN, apparently. Our local paper had a story completely at odds with that, so I checked CNN. *Their* story bore no relation to any other source I could find, and was fairly close to the radio station skit. I'll try to find URLs...

I want to clarify what you are stating above. It is not an attempt to be curt or sarcastic. Only a want to understand your Ideas on the above subject.

If it was your call how would you handle the bin laden Al-Quada issue? {Taking into account what you know to be factual, statements made by bin laden, mission statement of Al-Quader, past actions of Bin-Laden and Al-Quader}

Here, at least one URL for the human shield story. NZ Herald 040303, the *real& story.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?thesection=news&thesubsection=&storyID=3198891&reportID=562588
Guess what? I *can't find* the CNN story! It seems to have dropped off the edge of the ! So, I can't prove it was completely different to anything, and anywhere else. This wouldn't matter too much, except that most of our TV, radio and newspapers get their news from CNN!

"Thank you Zagreb, these statements pretty clearly sum up your manner of thinking to and your method of debate on the issues."

What, that I think hard-Right nutters like Osama bin Laden should be dealt with rather than allowed "to get on with it"? As Echocharlie said, he's declared war on the USA with his organisation and *has* attacked them before. Why shouldn't they fight back against a self-declared enemy? Especially one that is also the enemy of all the liberalism you want to defend?

What are the story's on the human shields, Della, both your take on it and CNNs? I haven't heard anything much about them.

Horribly interesting,?. On the radio on Monday was a brief statement in a short news bulletin from an (unnamed) man talking about the capture of aforesaid mastermind, and advocating, no not advocating, but taking for granted - torture! I was horrified!
As far as I know, the 'evidence' linking Osama and Al Quaeda to Sept llth, is a tape that purports to show OBL 'confessing'. I have never found this tape in the slightest bit convincing, all we got here of it, was someone (in badly lit video) said to be Osama, some other someones (his lieutenants) and a flood of Arabic, drowned out by the voice of an American 'interpreter'. Apparently, OBL said that he 'hadn't expected it to be that big of an explosion' - which while it's a comment isn't necessarily a confession! I can talk about the Team NZ America's Cup boat having its mast break, and say 'I didn't expect it would be that big of a mess' without my having gone onboard with a chainsaw to weaken it, the night before the race!

Well, Zagreb, this is how I understand it (as I say, the CNN story I saw last night NZ time) seems to have vanished.
Two people from NZ joined a number of others (two buses worth from Britain) to go to Iraq, and act as 'human shields', going to schools, hospitals etc., to be there in case of American bombing of civilian targets.
Yesterday, our local get-up-in-the-morning-breakfast-host station had a skit (they have one each day) about human shields having 'all left' because 'they realised they might get hurt'. I phoned and reamed them out - not because of the human shields, but on general principles i.e., war is never funny (which is why I despise Hogan's Heroes and 'Allo Allo') I asked where they'd got their figures (135/185 shields leaving.) The guy on the phone refused to say.When I stopped in at the local library, I googled human shields, and came up with CNN's story (the 135/185 leaving) story. Then, I got our local paper (the Herald) and read the story I posted the URL to. Imagine my ry-eyed surprise!

They were going there to try and avoid attacks on civilian targets? I have to say, it seems I misjudged them. I was under the impression they were going to live in Iraqi cities either to 1) Stop the War or 2) "Go through it" with the Iraqis. Now 1) Would be a waste of time (IMHO) and would be them needlessly putting themselves at risk and 2) Would be just utterly stupid.

However, if they intend to live in civilian buildings, then they give the US an extra incentive *not* to hit civilian areas (contrary to what many of you may think, the US is not trying to hit civilian targets - the "collateral damage" is usually due to the US habit of bombing from a massive height with minimum accuracy). Assuming the US would like to avoid the bad publicity, what they are doing may actually make some difference and, in that case, what they are doing is admirable (if still rather foolish, given the nature of the regime in the country they are "staying in").

Having said that, I don't think much bombing of cities will be required anyway - given the state of the Iraqi army (which I am convinced will barely put up a fight following the ground invasion), the bombing will largely be restricted to military front-line targets.

If it were up to me, I would "bomb" the Iraqi front lines telling the troops to turn their guns on their commanders and then invade. I'm sure they wouldn't put up much of a fight and then it's high tea and crumpets in Baghdad by midday to see Saddam and his Murderers-in-chief swinging from a lamp post

I think you have hit on one of the misconceptions many people outside of the US have of 'Hollywood' {American TV and movies}
These shows are made written and produced by a handful of people. They do not reflect 'americans' {or I should say most} see themselves anymore then it reflects the countrys that it is exported to.
It is a known here at least that the majority of 'american telivision' is a vast wasteland. {I have access to over 500 channels world wide and I can tell you that bad programs are not limited to america} American Movies and to some extent TV shows are nothing more than entertainment aimed more and more at not just the US but the international market. They are made for one reason and that is to make money. Unfortunently they are aimed at the most common denominator. Believe me Della you will not find what real americans are like on the tellie.

"bomb" them with leaflets, I meant to say. I don't think anyone has talking bombs.

"Even if he was not 100% behind 911 he has stated he and al-quada are enemys of the US. Has and will kill americans at any chance he has. In my opinion this gives the americans the right to go after osama and al-quader. "

Does anyone else wonder it's been rather quiet?
"as and will kill americans at any chance he has."
One would assume that if statements like this are to be taken seriously then there would be a lot more killing going on. So far I think the US government is leading the body count.

While thier motives are noble it seems they will be used by saddam to protect his interest not the iraq people. In the article you provided in 5271 {link} It states the protesters{human shields} are being told what sites they can shield by the Iraq authorities.