h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Note Cornwall has a lot of scholars that write on Celtic topics; Deacon is one of them and I have to say I enjoy what I've read of him. I don't know of any Devon scholars that write about Celtic topics. If you know of any post them up as I would be interested.

The following is a quote from Devonian historian W.G. Hoskins. Although it has been posted elsewhere in this forum, I think it is worth repeating here:


“Scattered about the country are isolated Celtic names which show that the Romano-British population of Devon were not entirely upland dwellers. There are two Crookes, one in North Tawton, the other in Combe Raleigh, both in low-lying country. The hamlet of Aunk, in Clyst Hydon parish, certainly has a Celtic name: it lies on a low spur of the valley of the Clyst about two miles north of Whimple, which is also a Celtic name (“White pool”). There can be little doubt that most of these Celtic names designate hamlets and farmsteads which have been continuously occupied from Celtic times into the period of Saxon settlement, when they were left undisturbed, and so down to the present day. When we stand in such places as this we are in the presence of a remote antiquity, going back to the days of the Celtic kingdom of Dumnonia. On this spot farmers have lived and tilled the soil since the 5th, 6th or 7th centuries, if not earlier in some instances, for Aunk and Whimple lie in the shadow of Hembury, that great fortress of the early Iron Age which was abandoned for the lower ground in the first century of the Christian era, and Treable has produced a coin of the second century....

“It is probable that the number of Celtic settlements that continued an unbroken life into the Saxon period and so down to the present day is considerably greater than the evidence of place-names alone would indicate. There is, above all, the evidence of the predominant physical types one finds among the native Devonian population to-day, a high proportion of whom clearly reveal a pre-Saxon ancestry. ‘On the coasts of Devon there may be several patches with dark and broad-headed stalwart men’ who are found also in nearly all the Cornish fishing harbours. ...

“Other pre-Saxon types abound on the fringes of Dartmoor, short, dark long-heads. A very common type all over Devon, especially perhaps in the east of the county, is the short dark round-head, with dark brown hair, a quick hazel eye, small hands and small feet. The Saxon type, taller with fair hair and grey eyes, is also conspicuous in Devon as we might expect in the light of what has been said already, but the older stocks form a high proportion of the native population and suggest that many pre-Saxon groups survived the English settlement and went on undisturbed in their hamlets and farmsteads” (pp. 47- 48).

from W.G. Hoskins, “A New Survey of England: Devon”. (Newton Abbot: David & Charles, 1972).

I think you missed the point, Newvonian, the same could be written for almost all the English counties, they all have a small background of Celtic names and traits which have become overwealmed by Anglo-Saxon names and ways. For example, Yorkshire has plenty of Celtic names and River 'Thames' is Celtic. I'm still interested in present day Celtic writers from Devon.

Felup or MM (whoever),

Not so.

Most of Central, Southern and Eastern England have considerably fewer Celtic names than Devon.

Yes, there are occaisional Celtic names throughout England, but outside of the far western region of Britain they are very few and far between - essentially limited to an occaisional major river and one or two placenames.

In Devon they abound - in names of rivers, of natural features, and in a large number of placenames. These are not limited to "combe" or "tor" names either - try Dunchideok, Dawlish, Hemyock, Meeth, Penquit, etc.. or in the dedications to Celtic saints.

Exmoor - well away from Cornwall - has dedications to St Urith, St Brendan, St Petrock, St Beuno, St Dubricius, St Carantock, and St Salvyn.

The referenced Exmoor National Park website (which provides detail on these saints) also comments that "the Welsh language remained on Exmoor throughout Saxon times".

http://www.exmoor-nationalpark.gov.uk/index/learning_about/general_information/churches/celtic_church.htm

It is true that it is not only Devon that can lay claim to having Celtic origins. Other regions, especially Cumbria and the ancient Pennine kingdon of Elmet can also claim some Celtic lineage.

Certainly, the placenames are not as overwhelmingly Celtic as Cornwall (west of the Ottery), and Anglo-Saxon names also exist (as they do in Cornwall to some extent), but that is not the point we are trying to make.

For example you can look to Cumbria with its Celtic placenames such as Carlisle, Penrith, or Penruddock, and Cumbrian Wrestling is as Celtic as as its Cornish or Devonian equivalents. Even Yorkshire has one of its three major peaks being named "Pen-Y-Ghent" (which leaves Cornish names looking considerably anglicised) or in placenames such as "Leeds".

The East, Midlands and South of England have a few, but very few, Celtic names. One such is the county name "Kent". Devon is considered to be the only other with a Celtic name - and that includes Cornwall.

MineralMan,

You are correct in your assertion that all of England has some Celtic heritage, but if you think that the level of Celtic heritage is uniform throughout England you would be quite wrong. One only has to take a look at the density of Brythonic place-names in the various counties to see that there is a very marked variation, with much higher concentrations in the West than in the East. Devon has one of the highest concentrations (Coates and Breeze, 2000), and that is without taking into account the fact that the Devon survey only included major names, whereas the surveys for many other counties were more comprehensive. Brythonic names in Devon are much more numerous among the minor names.

Also the Devon survey assumes that all instances of names containing the ‘combe’ element are of English origin, despite the fact that place-name etymologists agree that ‘combe’ is derived from the Brythonic ‘cumb’. This is because it was assumed until very recently that the current population of the whole of England (apart from Cornwall) was predominantly descended from the Anglo-Saxons, so that Brythonic ‘combe’ must have been used by the Anglo-Saxons as a borrowed word. We now know from numerous DNA surveys that the Anglo-Saxons constituted a small percentage of the overall population, and that the proportion was no higher in Devon than it was in Cornwall (Sykes, 2006, and Bodmer, 2007). Thus when Oliver Padel (1985), prior to the DNA surveys, pronounced that the Cornish ‘combe’ names were probably English in origin because there were so many ‘combe’ names in Devon, he was making the unwarranted assumption that the Devon ‘combe’ names were formulated by Anglo-Saxons. ‘Combe’ names (together with ‘tor’ names, from Brythonic ‘torr’) are among the most common names in Devon, so if these names are included, the percentage of Celtic names in Devon rises dramatically.

As we were discussing survival of Brythonic speech in Devon, can you explain the significant number of instances of ‘walensis’ in the “Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre of 1238” and the 13th century attested Brythonic place-names of Middle Cornish form. Both of these examples of primary evidence, together with the substantial body of secondary historical evidence (from Risdon to Jenner), are very difficult to account for unless some residual Brythonic speech persisted into at least the 14th century. If this is the case then Devon clearly passes Jenner’s test for Celticity, i.e. “those people who inhabited a territory where a Celtic language was, or had been, spoken”.

As for present day Celtic writers, perhaps you would like to define what a Celtic writer is.

Re. my post no 65, Jos. Chattaway’s article on Totnes in the Gentleman’s magazine of 1829. The source of his information on the area between the Tamar and the Dart seems to be the highly respected Cornish historian William Borlase in his ‘Antiquties of Cornwall’, first published 1754.

Mr Borlase says… “the Cornish Britons lived at Exeter together with, and in equal authority to the Saxons, till the entire conquest of their country by Athelstan in 936, when they were confined within the Tamar. But even after this the Cornish are said to have held as far east as Totness upon the river Dart; and this town was long after, even till the reign of Henry III reckoned the Eastern part of Cornwall.”

I’ve seen the first part of that quote many times, but never the later!

To both the exiles. If you read Jenner’s definition of Celticity like that, nigh all of Britain would qualify: all those tribes named on Roman maps,etc. I followed the discussions on the other BBC site about place names. Both tor and combe are considered loan words used by English speaking people. The argument that there were fewer Anglo-Saxons than were first thought so the names must be Celtic does not hold up in my eyes. The combe and tor names in Devon are surrounded by other English names in great abundance, so numbers of Anglo-Saxons is not the key. Also the word tor is often added superfluously to a Celtic named ‘hill/outcrop’ in Cornwall, for example, indicating English speakers.

The general ‘scratching around’ for Celtic place names, as you have been doing, is a sign that the Celtic influence was greatly subsumed by English place names. In Wales and Cornwall, that I am familiar with, the Celtic names are everywhere, a huge percentage, and this is quite different to Devon, Somerset, etc. Someone mentioned Padel; he actually wrote a paper comparing Cornwall and Devon place names, and they are very contrasting.

As regards to ‘Brythonic’ language, where it is not seen widespread in place names, literary evidence is what’s required to take away any uncertainty of scant references to possible speakers. Literature is still being unearthed in Cornwall’s case. You need to come up with a few manuscripts, preferably not showing any wet ink.

I was specifically interested in Devon-based scholars that wrote regularly on Devon Celtic aspects; are there any well-known present day historians, for example.

Penn Recca, perhaps that includes the pockets of Celtic speaking 'foreigners' (Wealas? = Welsh/Cornish/Bretons)) that have been referred to.

MineralMan, or should that be ‘clone of geoTamar’ (or maybe not even ‘clone’),

If Jenner’s definition of Celticity should not be read as Ozzie Exile and I have read it, perhaps you could explain how it should be read?

If ‘tor’ and ‘combe’ are invariably used as loan words by English speaking people, perhaps you could explain why Oliver Padel (1985) stated that the Cornish ‘combe’ names could be either Cornish or English in origin, and only came down in favour of the latter because there were so many ‘combe’ names in Devon, without explaining his reasoning as to why all the Devon ‘combe’ names must have been English in origin?

If the Devon ‘combe’ and ‘tor’ names being surrounded by an abundance of English names is proof that they are English in origin, how do you explain that the Cornish origin names in Padel’s book (1988) appear to be in the minority (43%) and are apparently surrounded by a majority (57%) of English names?

As for literary remnants, if Brythonic speech came to an end among the peasantry in Devon during the 14th century, would one expect to find written literary evidence? Even in West Cornwall, where Cornish was still in use by the educated classes at this time, virtually no literary fragments remain from before this time. The only wet ink that I have detected recently has come from the pens of Cornish separatist history re-writers.

The last recognised authority on Devon history was probably W.G. Hoskins and he certainly recognised Devon’s Celtic heritage. Perhaps Devon historians don’t feel insecure enough about their heritage to have to write endless papers in which the word ‘Celt’ or ‘Celtic’ appears in virtually every sentence (see the Deacon paper).

The term ‘wealas’ is not equivalent to Welsh/Cornish/Bretons. The Wessex law codes contained wergilds, which applied to all inhabitants of core Wessex (Hampshire, Dorset Wiltshire and Somerset). Four classes of Old English speakers were covered by the Wergilds, and six classes of Brythonic speakers (wealas). Surely you are not going to try to tell us that the six classes of wealas referred to were all either Welsh, Cornish or Bretons.

I note that you still haven’t explained the incidences of non-Cornish/Welsh ‘walensis’ in Devon in 1238, or how the Middle Cornish form appeared in Devon place-names in the 13th century. Surely someone with your vivid imagination could invent some explanations, as Cornish separatists usually do. We all need another good laugh after recovering from being told that all such names were put there by Cornishmen.

Mineral Man and/or Fulup:

Of course, if you go back far enough, all of what is now England has a Celtic heritage. However, Hoskins is not talking about harking back to a distant time before the Roman or Saxon Conquests and he is certainly not saying that Devon is just like every other English county. He is clearly stating that Devon is different and that in Devon a substantial portion of the Celtic population survived the arrival of the Saxons and continue up to the present. Here, in Hoskins’ own words, are a few of the main points from the passage quoted above:

1. “There can be little doubt that most of these Celtic names [in Devon] designate hamlets and farmsteads which have been continuously occupied from Celtic times into the period of Saxon settlement, when they were left undisturbed, and so down to the present day. When we stand in such places as this we are in the presence of a remote antiquity, going back to the days of the Celtic kingdom of Dumnonia.”

2. “It is probable that the number of Celtic settlements that continued an unbroken life into the Saxon period and so down to the present day is considerably greater than the evidence of place-names alone would indicate. There is, above all, the evidence of the predominant physical types one finds among the native Devonian population to-day, a high proportion of whom clearly reveal a pre-Saxon [i.e. Celtic] ancestry.”

3. “...the older [Celtic] stocks form a high proportion of the native population and suggest that many pre-Saxon groups survived the English settlement [of Devon] and went on undisturbed in their hamlets and farmsteads”

“...the older [Celtic] stocks form a high proportion of the native population and suggest that many pre-Saxon groups survived the English settlement [of Devon] and went on undisturbed in their hamlets and farmsteads”

Newvonian,

Even Hoskins would have been astonished to find out just how high the proportion of pre-Saxon (Celtic) ancestry is in the current Devon population. According to the huge DNA survey carried out by Sykes (Oxford University), the proportion is as high as in North Wales (and Cornwall), and much higher than anywhere in England east of the old Romano-British territory of Dumnonia.

I guess the only ones who are astonished are yourselves. You have pontificated but not really addressed the combe/tor names not being put there by Brythonic speakers/writers but Anglo-Saxons. You've not explained any of the points raised that shows this to be likely (associate names, grammar of name element usage, other Celtic names that cover both).

You seem to sail along in Cornwall's Celtic wake, but without having the 'wear with all' to back anything up.

The reason there are no current writers of Devon Celtic topics is that there is nothing much to write about.

You don't starve people like Bernard Deacon of things to base a paper or presentation on!

MineralMan (geoTamar clone),

Place-names elements such as ‘combe’ and ‘tor’ are indisputably Brythonic in origin. Thus the natural presumption must be that names including these elements were originally coined by Brythonic speakers, and any assertion to the contrary should be corroborated by solid evidence. In the past, place-name etymologists felt that they had such evidence when it was generally believed that the vast majority of the population of England was of Anglo-Saxon origin, and therefore these Brythonic terms must have been used as ‘borrowed’ words. As this belief has now been comprehensively and irrevocably demolished by recent scientific evidence (especially with reference to Devon), the ‘borrowed’ word hypothesis must fall with it as its very foundation has been removed. Unless someone can come up with alternative evidence for these words being English in origin, the argument is no longer sustainable.

Your adherence to the belief that associate names, grammar and instances of tautology represent evidence for non-Brythonic usage of these terms rests on very shaky foundations. Gelling (2000) has shown that most ‘combe’ names started out as simplex names and only became compounds after the Norman Conquest, so the associate names argument collapses. On the grammar front, your supposition that Brythonic grammar always means that the qualifier follows the noun is also incorrect, e.g. Carwynnen Carn, Chegwyn Carn, Bolinnow Carn, and many others. Tautological usage is common within all languages, e.g. the large number of tautological ‘hill’ names with all the elements being in the English language.

We are certainly not sailing along in Cornwall’s Celtic wake. If we are sailing in anyone’s wake, it would be that of the many writers who have written about a Celtic heritage for Devon. In fact these claims are totally different from any Cornish claims, as Devon has no interest whatsoever in being associated with overtly political organisations such as the Celtic League, and we do not recognise the “self-appointed right” (as Deacon put it) of such organisations to be the sole arbiters of what is Celtic and what is not.

As you are apparently so keen to find out about current writers on Devon Celtic topics, perhaps I should point you in the direction of Terry Faull and his recent (2004) publication on Devon’s ancient Celtic Holy Wells and the still strong heritage of the many Celtic Saints in Devon, in particular St Petroc, whose veneration in Devon is still strong.

Devonians do not feel the urge to emulate Deacon in his navel gazing Celticist fetish writings, where the word ‘Celtic’ (or ‘Celt’) manages to find its way into virtually every sentence. Of course you like his works, because he is telling you what you desire to hear.

I note with amusement that you have carefully avoided answering the critical questions that I put to you in Posting 88. As always, when the going gets tough you Cornish separatists slink away leaving only a defensive smokescreen behind you.

Mineral Man and/or Fulup

"I guess the only ones who are astonished are yourselves."

I assume by this statement that you agree with the results of the Sykes DNA survey and are not astonished by the fact that the population of Devon is every bit as Celtic as that of North Wales and Cornwall.

Yes astonished that you could find ONE writer on Devon's Celtic history, but even he agrees with the whole theme of what I've been saying:

http://www.holywells.com/html/place_name_evidence.html

The answer to Plymouth Exile's question in message 88, is that it does not state this and Penn Recca may have answered the question re Totnes.

MineralMan (geoTamar),

Writers on Devon history tend to cover the whole of the subject and not just concentrate on the Celtic aspects (as is the case with the Kernow-centric writers). Terry Faull had revised his thesis by the time that he wrote his book on Devon’s Holy Wells in 2004, as he lists a number of holy places in Devon with Brythonic place-names, e.g. Landkey (one of a number of Devon ‘lan’ names), Feniton, Venton (near Dartington), and several other ‘fenten’ names near Chagford, Crapstone and Ivybridge, together with ‘nymet’ names such as Nymet Tracey and Kings Nympton. You will have to think again, won’t you?

I posed a number of critical questions in my message 88. You haven’t even said which one you have claimed to have answered, and remember before answering properly that I can quote chapter and verse, so you could end up with egg all over your face.

Borlase could not have meant that Cornwall extended as far east as Totnes until the reign of Henry III, as there are a number of (primary evidence) historic documents, which prove that the Devon borders were more or less where they are now long before Henry’s reign. His probable meaning was that the Cornish language was still in use in this region at that time (as we have been saying all along). It was stated elsewhere (by Chattaway) that “from this time the Cornish language began to decline in the South Hams.” So Borlase was merely confirming what had been stated by many others and confirmed in the Crown Pleas (1238) and the 13th century Middle Cornish place-names in Devon.

You Cornish separatists are not very consistent are you? First you state that Athelstan set the border between Cornwall and Devon at the Tamar (which he didn’t, as it was set long before this), and then you change your tune by misinterpreting the writings of Borlase and claiming that the border was at the River Dart until the 13th century (also incorrect). Can you get anything right?

Now how about answering all of the points I raised in message 88?

I'm partly Cornish but not a separatist, whatever that is, or one of these names you accuse me of being. I am quite interested in Celtic history and don't like seeing it overplayed or misrepresented. Returning to what you have written, one excuse after another. You seem to select what certain authors say and disregard what you do not want to hear. I think Faull was pretty accurate in what he said about the lack of Celtic names in Devon. Deacon says the same, quoting Padel (1999).

MineralMan (geoTamar clone),

If you believe what Deacon writes, concerning Cornwall being a Celtic NATION, then by definition you are a separatist. If you don’t like Celtic history being misrepresented, then I would suggest that you spread your net wider when selecting reading matter, as separatist literature presents a somewhat warped and biased view of historical events.

I only disregard what authors say when there is overwhelming evidence that what they say is incorrect, such as Cornwall extending to the Dart during the reign of Henry III. However, what Borlase wrote does tie in with what many other notable authors at that time wrote about Cornish language persisting in South Devon during this period, but not about the South Hams being a part of Cornwall. There is conclusive primary evidence that it was not. It also contradicts the separatist’s assertion that the boundary between Cornwall and Devon was fixed at the Tamar by Athelstan in 936AD. Separatists choose whatever spurious version of history that happens to suit their argument at the time, and hence end up contradicting themselves.

You accuse me of being selective, but you have chosen to believe Faull’s earlier on-line account concerning Celtic place-names, rather than what is contained in his later book after he had had more time to research the subject. A number of authoritative documents and books by respected place-name etymologists (e.g. Coates and Breeze) show that his initial assertion on his web site is spurious. Incidentally, Padel (1985) gives the same etymologies for the Devon ‘lan’ and ‘nymet’ place-names as Faull gives in his 2004 book.

As to why I have referred to you as ‘geoTamar clone’, it is because you are using exactly the same line of argument, in the same writing style, that geoTamar used, until his recent disappearance, on the BBC Cornwall message board. Even the name ‘MineralMan’ that you choose to be known by ties in well with geoTamar as he had a strong interest in the metal mining industry. If you have been following the discussions on the BBC Cornwall message board, as you claim, you will know that already.

For the ‘n’th time are you going to address the points I made in message 88 or not? If not, and you persist in avoiding the issue, you aren’t going to convince anyone here, so you are wasting your time.

Another reference.

In Rev Isaac Taylor's book "Words and Places" (1864) he states (p 255) that "in Devon the ancient Cymbric speech lingered on till the reign of Elizabeth; while in Cornwall, it was the general medium of intercourse in the time of Henry VIII".

Unfortunately, Taylor provides no additional reference for this statement.

He does however provide some additional information on "Crockern Tor", which as avid readers of this site may know was the base for the Devon Stannary Parliament.

Taylor believes (p 309) the word Crockern derives from "the Welsh word 'gragan' (to speak loud), whence comes the English verb 'to croak'...".

Taylor indicates that before the Devon and Cornish Stannary Parliaments were separated in the reign of Edward 1st, Crockern Tor was the site of occaisional sittings of the joint Stannary body.

I have also come across a discussion in a publication called "Notes and Queries" over various episodes in 1871 where a person ("R.C.A.P.") sought a source for the statement he had heard that Cornish (or at least a variant of British) survived to pre-Conquest times in Devon.

There were a number of responses (I have not followed them all down), but one response in particular is worth mentioning.

One John Bannister responds "R.C.A.P. will find the statement he refers to, and I presume, the authority for the statement, in (Richard) Polwhele's Historical View of Devonshire".

Bannister refers to the contents for volume iii, chapter 4 "The Norman-Saxon period from William the Conquerer to Edward the First" section ix:

"Normans attempting to substitute Norman-French for the Anglo-Saxon - the English attached to the Saxon language - the Cornu-British in Devon and Cornwall, the vulgar tongue - spoken also by the higher ranks of people in Cornwall, and a great part of Devonshire".

He also refers to volume iv "The Saxo-Lancastrian-Yorkish Period", in section ix:

"The French language very generally adopted in England - the Anglo-Saxon still the vernacular tongue - the Cornu-British almost lost in Exeter - retained in a great part of the Southams".

These aseem to be content summaries, but clearly "Historical View of Devonshire" would appear to be a key source, and was published in 1793.

Polwhele also published a 3 volume book "History of Devonshire", but this may well be a different book and may not have this content.

Interestingly , both Polwhele and Bannister appear to be Cornish.

One other reference I will mention from the above discussion is to the writing by Professor Max Muller, who stated in his "Chips" publication that "through the whole of English history to the accession of the House of Hanover the inhabitants of Cornwall and the western portion of Devonshire, in spite of intermarriages with Romans, Saxons, and Normans, were celts and remained Celts"

From various investigations I have made it appears that Polwhele's "Historical View of Devonshire" only had Volume 1 published, despite the extensive Contents section for subsequent volumes referred to.

It then appears that Polwhele used this Contents as the basis for his later work "History of Devonshire". However (accoring to Exeter Local Studies Library) the Contents section of that book also does not always match to the text on the relevant pages.

It seems that the "History of Devonshire" may well be a useful book to review but that readers may have to go beyond the strict order of the contents page to find what you want.

I will research further.