h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Paranoia? I'm not felup, I'm MineralMan le Plymothian Janner aka Dewnans

Mineralman,

Have you posted to any sites under these identities?

I am curious because one of the identities you referred to is mine.

I know I am not talking to myself.

However Felub has been caught using multiple identities on sites - and even answering his own postings.

I managed to locate a copy of Frazer and Holmes article yesterday.

A rather srange read it was, with the majority of the article appearing to be lists of questions to be asked other of other cultures or civilizations, rather than findings.

However at the end (essentially Page 440) there is a section on language, and here the nature of the article appears to change.

It says (in part)

"Those who remember how very gradually the English language superceded the Celtic in South-West Britain. For as Canon Isaac Taylor remarks ("Words and Places") in the will of King Alfred, Dorset, Somerset, Wilts and Devon are all enumerated as "Wealcynne" or counties Celtic both in blood and language. In remote parts of Devon Celtic was spoken here and there till the reign of Elizabeth"

It gives no reference for the last comment - which is unfortunate.

However it has struck me that, the claims of Historians such as Frazer and Holmes (and numerous others) have been proven correct, at least in terms of the "blood", by modern DNA evidence.

The prevalent view amongst 'historians' even ten years ago was that there had been a general expulsion of the British Celtic people by the Anglo-Saxons, and that the Celts were physically pushed into the western margins.

We now know that this is wrong, as "Native British" DNA is in the majority throughout most of England - but especially so in the South West.

Anyhow, back to the article.

The authors compare Fifeshire in Scotland with Cornwall. They make reference to the fact that as late as 1730-5 it was difficult to find English speakers in Fifeshire, although at hat time English was widespread in Cornwall (they make reference to Llhuyd who indicated that by 1701 every Cornishman could then speak English and Cornish was only spoken in a few villages on the Lands End region).

Frazer and Holmes then comment that Cornish placenames are largely Celtic, but that Fifeshire has about as high a proportion of Saxon placenames as Devon or Somerset.

The question is obviously why a Celtic language appeared to have survived so much better in Fifeshire than it did in Cornwall, given the latter had a higher proportion of Celtic placenames.

Overall I found the article disappointing, and the Victorian style is difficult and different. However there it is.

Newvonian - you were going to review this article as well. Did you glean anything else from it??

I know little about Fifeshire, but I believe others here might.

Any comments on that??

Ozzie Exile,

I don’t know what format you read this in - I assume it was online. I had a look at it on microfilm on Thursday (March 15) and there are actually two articles. The first and by far the longest is by Frazer and is as you described it. This if followed by a short article, only a little over a page long, by T.V. Holmes which is the piece on language and placenames in Fifeshire and Cornwall (Vol VIII, 1889, pp. 439- 440). I was able to trace the origin of Holmes, statement about the Celtic language in Devon surviving until Elizabeth’s reign back so far.

The “Words and Places” by Taylor mentioned by Holmes is actually a reference to “Words and Places” by Rev. Isaac Taylor M.A.(edited with corrections by A. Smythe Palmer D.D).. They had several editions at the Q.E. II Library. The one I looked at was the second edition (London: George Routledge and Sons, 1865). Both of the quotes in Holmes are taken from Taylor (pp. 170-171). Here’s what Taylor says:

“Thus in the will of Alfred, Dorset, Somerset, Wilts and Devon are enumerated as ‘wealhcynne’ a phrase which proves that these counties were then [AD 899] thoroughly Celtic in blood and language although politically they belonged to the Anglo-Saxon Commonwealth ... In remote parts of Devon the ancient Cymric speech feebly lingered on till the reign of Elizabeth.” He goes on to say that, “Dr. Guest [Journal of the Archaeological Association Vol XVI] has shown that the valleys of the Frome and the Bristol Avon formed an intrusive Welsh wedge protruding into the Saxon districts.” And that, “In Wales the change of language, now in progress [1865] is accompanied by very little infusion of Saxon blood. The same must also have been the case in the earlier period. In Mercia and Wessex, at all events, we must believe that the bulk of the people is of Celtic blood. The Saxon keels cannot have transported any very numerous population, and, no doubt, the ceorls, or churls, long continued to be nearly pure-blooded descendants of the aboriginal Celts of Britain.” Here, as you say, Taylor is anticipating ‘modern DNA evidence’ by about 140 years.

Taylor’s statement about the old language in Devon surviving until the reign of Elizabeth appears to be taken from William Camden’s “Britannia” (second edition edited by R. Gough, London. 1806). William Camden lived from 1551 to 1623 and, apparently, the first edition of “Britannia” was published in 1586. If this statement is, in fact, from Camden then we have a primary source reference to the old language being spoken in Devon at that time. There is a copy of “Britannia” available online at this link www.philological.bham.ac.uk Before we get too excited though, I have to say that I’ve had a quick look and can’t find it. However, it may be there and I just missed it - books from this period are not the easiest things to read. On the other hand, this is a transcription of the 1607 version (the sixth edition) and there may be material in the 1586 edition that is not in this one.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree but if anyone wants to have a look and see what they can find or knows any more about this, I’m sure we would all be very interested to hear about it.

By the way, the reason that there is some confusion about the source of the statement discussed above is that instead of using a separate footnote for each statement, Taylor uses one footnote listing three sources for the entire paragraph. These are:

1. Sir Francis Palgrave, “History of the Rise and Progress of the English Commonwealth during the Anglo-Saxon Period" (London, 1832).

2. William Camden, “Britannia” second edition edited by R. Gough, (London. 1806).

3. J.O. Halliwell, “Rambles in Western Cornwall by the Footsteps of the Giants” (London, 1861).

No page or volume numbers are provided - such is the nature of much Victorian historical writing. However, based on the sequence, it seems pretty clear that Camden is the source of the statement about the old language in Devon during Elizabeth’s reign.

Newvonian,

I did review my copy of Frazer and Holmes online - which maybe why I missed the fact that the last section was a separate article.

Your reference to the specific Taylor text is interesting.

However, what made you comment that Taylors statement appears to be taken from Camden's "Brittania"?? Was that the reference given?

Like you I have reviewed the online copy of Brittania, and didn't spot it.

Nevertheless - good work.

Ozzie Exile

I think I may have answered your question in my last posting.

Here is a quote from the introduction to a 1984 edition of Camden’s “Remains of Britain:

“The "Britannia", when it first appeared in 1586 was a chorographical description of Britain with particular emphasis on Roman Britain. The arrangement, or division as Camden called it, was first by Roman province, then by county, then within the county, by city and river. It was written in Latin and intended primarily for the European reader. But Camden added material to all five subsequent editions in his lifetime and by the sixth edition the book had grown to more than twice the original size. The 1607 edition includes considerably more information on both Roman and post-Roman Britain. With Philemon Hollands’s authorized English translation in 1610, the shift in emphasis was complete: it had become a book comprising all British antiquity and was intended for the British reader (William Camden, “Remains Concerning Britain”, edited by R.D. Dunn. Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1984. p xvi).

The “Remains of Britain” is a separate work entirely, written only in English and not to be confused with “Britannia” which was published exclusively in Latin until 1610. The version available online, or at least the only one I know of, is the 1610 English version. Given that all six editions contained new material, it may be that there is information in the second edition (which is the one that Taylor used: specifically the version of the second edition by R. Gough, London. 1806) that was not contained in the final 1610 English version.

If a primary source reference to the old language surviving in Devon until the reign of Elizabeth is to be found in Camden, then it is to the second edition that we should look for it. If it exists - and at this point we need to emphasis ‘if’ - then it may also give us a clue as to when the language finally died out in Devon. If Camden mentions it in 1586 but not in the 1607 Latin version or the 1610 English translation, that may mean that the language died out sometime within that 21 year period (1586-1607). Camden, who was constantly revising his text and trying to keep it up to date, may have removed it because it was no longer accurate.

"I certainly would rather rely on primary evidence"

MineralMan,

There is primary evidence of Brythonic speech in Devon in 1238 (Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre). Even C. Jenkin admits that, but prefers to believe (without any evidence) that the numerous references to 'Walensis' refer to men from Wales, despite the fact that not one of them has a characteristic Welsh name. Also, in the Crown Pleas, the small number of Welshmen are referred to as being 'of (or from) Wales'. The 'Walensis' are not referred to as in this way. Jenkin has therefore not got any satisfactory reason for assuming that these are not native Devonian Brythonic speakers.

Some clown wrote:

"However Felub has been caught using multiple identities on sites - and even answering his own postings"

Really? Where would that be then?

Fulup,

You have even owned up to it.

Where? BBC Cornwall messageboard - around about June 2006.

In a previous posting I mentioned that I had read that following the Norman Conquest Breton knights were given land in the West Country because of the cultural and linguistic links between it and Brittany. While it doesn’t give the reason for the grant, here is one example of a Breton knight acquiring land in Devon. I found this online at www.devon-online.com/towns/totnes. I’m usually pretty cautious about using online sources but this one seems pretty reliable and it should be easy enough to check its validity. Here’s the quote:

“William the conqueror, granted Totnes, along with 107 other Devonshire manors to Judel the Breton (three variations of the name are mentioned in the research texts; Judel, Juhel and Judhael). Totnes castle was one of the first three stone castles to be in Devon, in a clear attempt to tighten William's hold over this potentially rebellious shire. Judel built his castle in the most commanding position possible, straddling the original medieval town walls with one of the largest examples of a Norman motte-and-bailey castle in the country. A dramatic round shell keep built on top of a huge mound of pounded earth and rock that still evokes a feeling of power today. The castle remains remarkably intact to this day, as it never received the kind of battering usually suffered by castles in the middle ages.”

The K-Browser software has been upgraded. The new version has a Cornish Youtube viewer.

The download zip file is at http://thisisnotcornwall.co.uk/K-Browser.zip

Download to your desktop; right click, 'extract all'; open folder at finish and click the 'setup' file.

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It will be available on a CD which will run the K-Browser as soon as you put it in your PC, with an option to install it in the start up page.

Plymouth Exile

In several previous postings you have mentioned the 1238 ‘Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre’ and that there are numerous references to men identified as 'Walensis' in Devon at that time. I agree with you that these are most likely Devonian Brythonic speakers but I was wondering:

1. Is this is based on your own research or has it been published somewhere?

2. Where would one find a copy of this document?

and

3. Does the document mention where these people where from in Devon?

The last might provide some interesting insights. If these people were from all over Devon then it would mean that the language was still fairly widely spoken in 1238. On the other hand, if the speakers were concentrated in one or two areas it would give us some idea of where the language was still being spoken at that time. As has been mentioned a number of times before in this forum, Fortescue Hitchens and Samuel Drew state that the old language was still being spoken “in a part of the South Hams in the time of Edward 1st (1272-1307)”. Might it have been spoken over a wider area 30 or 40 years earlier or was it even then restricted to the South Hams and the eastern side of the Tamar?

Newvonian,

“Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre of 1238” has been published by Devon and Cornwall Record Society (New Series, Vol. 28). It is edited, with an introduction, by Henry Summerson (1985).

The deductions concerning ‘Walensis’ are mine, based on:-

1. Those referred to as ‘Walensis’ are mentioned much more frequently than people from counties bordering Devon, which one would not expect to find if they were men from Wales.
2. The few people from the Counties bordering Devon are referred to as being from (or of) Cornwall, Somerset or Dorset.
3. The few references to Welsh people are to people from (or of) Wales, not as ‘Walensis’.
4. The ‘Walensis’ were more often situated in the southern and western areas of Devon, rather than along the north coast, which would have been expected if they had been migrants from South Wales.
5. None of those referred to as ‘Walensis’ had typically Welsh names, so they were almost certainly not itinerant Welshmen.
6. The term ‘Walensis’ was also used frequently in documents in areas such as the English counties bordering Wales at this time (13th century), where Brythonic speech was known to have persisted until relatively modern times. It was also used to identify Brythonic speakers in the Scottish borders, in areas that had been parts of the British Kingdom of Strathclyde.

Cases involving ‘Walensis’ were heard at Hundreds including Witheridge, South Tawton, Lifton, Roborough, Black Torrington, Ottery St. Mary, Shebbear, Plympton and Axminster. In addition to those referred to as ‘Walensis’, there were also a number with names such as Walerande, Walerant, Walrand and Walrande, all of which contain the element ‘wal’, probably meaning a Brythonic speaker, with cases heard at Uffculme, Hayridge and Exeter.

Summerson translated the term ‘Walensis’ literally as ‘the Welshman’, without further comment or specifying where the person was from, probably because he regarded it as the most common interpretation. However, in his introduction, Summerson remarked on a couple of personal links between North Devon and South Wales, but neither of these involved any of the men referred to as ‘Walensis’.

Plymouth Exile

Thank you for the information. I think you’re really on to something here. This suggests a fairly wide distribution of Brythonic speakers in Devon in the first half of the thirteenth century although they must have been a minority in much of the county by that time. I’m not sure how thorough your list of hundreds is but it suggests to me that the largest number of “Walensis” were concentrated in the western half of Devon by this time. That would fit in well with the idea that the old language faded out gradually from east to west until it finally died out in western Cornwall towards the end of the eighteenth century.

Various,

I'm from SW Devon but I have a name most prevalent in Mid-Cornwall. Most Cornish surnames have spread out east throughout England. Could these 'Walensis' have been isolated groups of migrating or settled Cornish, as at the dates you mention the Cornish language was spoken in almost all? of Cornwall.

MineralMan,

This seems unlikely since, as Plymouth Exile says in his second point above, "The few people from the Counties bordering Devon are referred to as being from (or of) Cornwall, Somerset or Dorset."

MineralMan,

Newvonian is quite correct. Having examined the Crown Pleas again, I find that when a Cornish person was just visiting Devon, he/she was described as being 'of Cornwall', but when actually living in Devon, the term used was 'from Cornwall'. The same applied to natives of Somerset, Dorset, etc. There is one instance where someone is actually described as being 'Cornish' ('John the Cornishman' was the translation), and in this case the original term used was 'Cornubiens'. There was no indication that any of the 'Walensis' were Cornish in origin.

I owned up to using different identities at different times on different boards; no overlap which I feel is what you are acussing me of.

New Cornish forum to debate the future of Kernow; all are welcome to contribute: http://thisisnotengland.co.uk/forum/index.php