h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This is what it hopes to achieve:

OBJECT OF THE APPLICATION

1. To request a ruling by the Court that the Convention rights of the Applicants are violated on the grounds of bias and discrimination in the legislative, judicial and executive decision making process adopted by the government of the United Kingdom in relation to Cornwall on account of the priorities being provided in terms of “rights, property and profits” (Crown Proceedings Act 1947, Doc.37) in Cornwall for the Duke of Cornwall as Heir to the Throne causing harassment, intimidation and deprivation to the Applicants as members of the indigenous Celtic people of Cornwall.

2. To request a ruling by the Court that the Duchy of Cornwall Estate, as the provider of an income for the Heir to the Throne, be designated a public body as is the case with the Crown Estate which has no holdings in Cornwall. (Doc.40+95).

3. To request a ruling by the Court that the protection of the Convention rights of the Applicants requires the government of the United Kingdom to apply the principle of equality before the law (Doc.36) in the distribution of state funding so that the culture, heritage, traditions and language of the indigenous Cornish national minority of Britain is funded proportionate to that currently made available for the culture, heritage, traditions and language of the English national majority of Britain as well as the Welsh, Gaels and Ulster Scots.

4. To request a ruling by the Court that the protection of the Convention rights of the Applicants requires enforceable adherence to the principle of equality before the law in legislation relevant to land ownership, whether designated Crown land or otherwise, and the implementation of the measures necessary to realise the discontinuance of exemptions from planning legislation and regulations (Doc.93) in order to eliminate the suspicion of the official use of planning laws to maximise the profits of one state aided organisation, impose deprivation on, and suppress the Celtic identity and cultural heritage of, the Applicants and other Cornish people.

5. To request a ruling by the Court that the exclusion of the Cornish from the provisions of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities constitutes a violation of the Convention rights of the Applicants.

6.To request a ruling by the Court that the protection of the Convention rights of individuals in ‘association with a national minority’ requires the inclusion of a guarantee of the international principle of equality before the law within the legal systems of applicant states and member states as a defining qualification for membership of the Council of Europe.

Try asking the Cornish Stannary Parliament: http://www.cornish-stannary-parliament.abelgratis.com/

Make sure you get sources and when you get a response post it up here.

If not, because I know some of you are loathed to talk to "Cornish nationalists" why not ask the question on this Cornwall 24 thread?: http://www.cornwall24.co.uk/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-1554.htm

I eagerly await your results.

Nos da,

Here is the all new Cornish Stannary Parliament website: http://cornishstannaryparliament.org/

Here is a little article yours truely helped get of the ground: http://www.catalystmagazine.org/Default.aspx.LocID-0hgnew0lx.RefLocID-0hg01b001006009.htm?sksearchtext=Cornish


More on Britishness here: http://www.catalystmagazine.org/britishness.html

Cornish migration patterns: http://www.casa.ucl.ac.uk/surnames/papers/20_cornish_migration.pdf

Nice little quote from a Welsh friend, has Devon been overlooked again?

Dear FLB,

Reading on 16c at the moment, one book is

Writing The Nation in Reformation England, 1530-1580 - Cathy Shrank ( 2004) - Oxford University Press - isbn 019 921100 0

It has a number of references to Cornish etc in it and I thought that you might like to have historic sources to cite for the Cornish being recognised as a distinct national group. There are nine references in it to them being referred to in texts.

In discussing Andrewe Borde's " The Fyrst Boke of the Introduction of Knowledge" - P37 'the Cornish are starved almost to death and forced to drink ale which tastes like pig swill' - P43 'Cornish speech is as corrupt as its ale is 'dycke and smoky, and...dyn / ...lyke wash, as pigges had wrestled dryn' - 'In Cornwall is two speches' he declares 'the one is naughty englyshe, the other is Cornyshe speche'. The Cornishman's Eglish speech consequently abounds in archaisms and dialect terms, as 'dup' (open), 'bedauer' ( bedfellow ), 'fyngered' and 'afyngered' ( hungry ), whilst the attempt to capture a Cornish accent phonetically ( with 'dycke' for thick, 'dryn' for in, 'iche' for 'I', 'vare' for fare ) intensifies their portrayal as ill-bred yolkels, alien to the metropolitian culture celebrated elsewhere by Borde. P49 'There be many men and women the whiche cannot speake one worde of Englyshe, but all Cornyshe' - The section on Cornwall [in the Boke] lies uneasily on the margins of England, labelled an 'appendex', not fully incorporated within it, literally a piece of land which 'hangs on'.[ie. Borde doesn't treat it as part of England]

- P88 is talking about John Leland's descriptions of the Cornish and his appropriation of Cornish material into his Genethliacon book (full title?) - P91 - describes passages from this book that make Cornwall into a fantastic land of plenty (in contrast to Borde's description of poverty).

I recently came across the following article extract

"In remote parts of Devon, Celtic was spoken here and there till the reign of Elizabeth. And in Cornwall, it has been absolutely extinct only about a century.."

The authors were J G Frazer and T J Holmes of Trinity College, Cambridge and the article appeared in "The Journal of Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland", Vol 18, 1885.

I have not yet seen the full script, although it is available through JSTOR at many university and other academic sites.

As Elizabeth I reigned from 1533-1603 this gives some indication that the Celtic language survived in Devon until at least the 16th Century.

The date for the Cornish expiration co-incides nicely with the date given for the death of Dolly Pentreath in 1777 who is reputed to be the last fluent speaker of Cornish (before its 20th century revival)

“The authors were J G Frazer and T J Holmes of Trinity College, Cambridge and the article appeared in "The Journal of Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland", Vol 18, 1885.”

Ozzie Exile

Are you sure you have the right volume and year for this article? I went through Vols. 16 to 20 of “The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland” yesterday (March 5) on microfilm and couldn’t find it. (By the way, Vol 18 was published in 1889). I did find several papers by James G. Frazer and there was one by a T.V. Holmes (couldn’t find T.J. Holmes) but none of them dealt with Devon or things Celtic. I did find what appears to be an interesting paper by T.W. Shore called “Characteristic Survivals of the Celts in Hampshire” (Vol XX, 1891). I’m sure the Frazer and Holmes paper is in there somewhere but, as far as I can tell, it must be in another volume. The next time I go to the Queen E. II Library at the University here I’ll have a look at the journal online and see if I can track it down.

Elizabeth I's reign was actually 1558 to 1603. So, if this claim can be authenticated, it would mean the survival of the Old Language in some remote parts of Devon until sometime in the second half of the 16th century.

Do you think they were isolated pockets of Cornish people?

If by ‘Cornish people’ you mean people originally from west of the Tamar who were for some reason living in Devon, no. If this statement is, indeed, correct then we are talking about native Devonians who were still speaking the Celtic language that was spoken all over the Southwest prior to the arrival of the Saxons and which gradually declined as the influence of the Saxons increased. One of the last places that this language was spoken was Devon and, of course, the last place it was spoken was Cornwall where it tragically died out towards the end of the eighteenth century.

Fortescue Hitchens and Samuel Drew’s “The History of Cornwall from the Earliest Records to the Present Time” (Helston:William Penaluna, 1824) states that, “The Cornish language [meaning the Celtic language of the Southwest], it appears, was current in a part of the South Hams in the time of Edward 1st (1272-1307)”. What we are trying to establish is exactly how long the Celtic language of the southwest (often referred to as ‘Southwest Brythonic’) continued to be spoken in Devon. Evidence from the Prayer Book Rebellion of 1549 suggests that the language may still have been spoken in some parts of Devon at that time. If the statement by Frazer and Holmes is correct, it indicates the Old Language did not die with the rebels slaughtered during and after the Prayer Book Rebellion but was still being spoken in some parts of Devon during Elizabeth I’s reign (1558-1603).

"Are you sure you have the right volume and year for this article?"

Newvonian, apologies. The reference I have is to Volume 18, in 1889. It is accredited to Frazer and Holmes on the JSTOR site, but I suspect the article itself may be in the name of just J G Frazer.

If the JSTOR referencing is correct the article is called "Questions on the Manners, Customs, Religion, Superstitions &C. of Uncivilized or Semi-Civilised people". Without having seen the whole text I do not know why Victorians might see Devon (or Cornwall) as either of these - perhaps it illustrates oncer again the Victorian prejudices. Alternatively it may simply be an attempt by the authors to put other issues into context.

If you can find the article you can help us answer this question.

As to Mineralman's question, it would seem unlikely that a few pockets of ex-patriate Cornishmen speaking Cornish in 1603 in parts of Devon (as you suggest) would be cause for comment. Therefore the reference is presumably not to this.

Whether the language's survival in Devon was extended because of continuing interaction with Cornish people (ie ongoing social, cultural and linguistic interaction) would seem possible to me (whatever the period - whether that would be to the 14th or 16th centuries) but that is simply my conjecture.

Quite a discussion on this subject took place on another BBC board between some guy from Devon (Plymouth Exile) and a Cornishman (C. Jenkin) who has qualifications in history. The conclusion seemed to be that there was no 'primary evidence' for Cornish being spoken in Devon since the Norman Conquest. The thread is worth a read and there is a reference somewhere therein to a map showing the 'retreat' of the Cornish language with time. It is now of course well revived and thriving. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/england/F2770282?thread=1414894&skip=540&show=20

Mineralman,

I don't think anyone could claim that the thread you referrred to 'concluded' anything - other than the two combatants won awards for endurance.

Conan Jenkins is a member of Mebyon Kernow I believe - in fact he was/is a deputy leader. Clearly this would colour his opinions. He appears to be the same person who lectures in computing at Truro college.

I believe I have seen the map you refer to - although it appears to provide little basis for its various lines. However even that suggests that the celtic language survived in Devon past the Norman conquest as the 1100AD line (which indicates North East Cornwall was not then Cornish speaking) appears to go to cross the Tamar in mid/North Devon.

The map does not show where the line progresses once it crosses the Tamar, but neither does it follow the Tamar.

Correction. The map I recalled shows the 1200AD line appearing to cross the Tamar - not a 1100AD line.

Here is a link to that map.

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/image/k/n/append19_2_.gif

The map derives from a publication by Ken George in 1986, with the eastern lines based on input from a conference paper by Holmes (1976).

I have yet to see that original work either, and so I am not sure how Holmes arrives at his 'contour lines' and on what evidence.

Although somewhat incidental to the above debate, one of the few documentary records of the middle Cornish language (1200AD to 1600AD) derive from Glasney College in Penryn. That college was founded by a Walter Bronescombe (or Branscombe) who was Bishop of Exeter and who was (ahem) a Devonian.

I found Jenkin's arguments pretty sound, particularly on the 'primary evidence vs. secondary' I don't know if the other person has a coloured opinion but he/she certainly seems to read too much into some evidence (or lack of it).

Ozzie Exile

I did come across that article and, as far as I can remember, it is by Frazer alone. I didn’t bother to read through it because the title didn’t seem to have anything to do with Devon. Now that I know I will have another look. It will probably be Friday or Saturday before I get a chance but I’ll let you know what I find.

It would make sense that the last speakers of the old language in Devon would live along the east bank of the Tamar and this seems to be supported by Hitchens and Drew’s statement that “long after” Edward 1st reign (1272-1307) the language in Devon “was common on the banks of the Tamar”. After all, knowledge of a language will only usually last as long is there is someone else to talk to.

Mineral Man

Thanks for the link. I haven’t had a chance to read through the discussion but I’ll have a look when I have more time.

Mineralman,

Perhaps you preferred Conan Jenkins' arguement, but judging by posts 494 and 495 this was not the view of others.

There is substantial evidence to support Devon having a celtic language after the Norman Invasion - and Plymouth Exile gave a number of examples, including an absolute raft of historical references, references to celtic placenames being recorded for the first time well after the Norman Invasion (eg Clovelly), and in terms of placenames which adopt the middle Cornish (rather than early Cornish) form - clearly indicating a living language.

Conan's (and his colleague geoTamar) response is to classify all the evidence that is positive about Devon as 'secondary' and everything Cornish as 'primary', and yet I suspect that neither have read all of the documents and authors referred to. Where are their sources?

Newvonian and I provide other references to support the Devon case as well (refer very recent posts). Have these also been studied?

A single unsupported source is certainly to be questioned, but the combination of sources above certainly raises whether there is a probability.

In fact the map referenced above, which I believe is the one you allude to, also appears entirely consistent with the language surviving in Devon until at least the 13th Century. And this is the arguement for the prosecution???

Given the balance of probabilities provided from the various sources provided the real question appears not to be 'whether the celtic language survived in Devon post the Norman invasion?', but rather 'for how long?'.

I certainly would rather rely on primary evidence and I get the feeling that quoting any speech existing past the Conquest is prone to criticism and is not supported by major historians.

I don’t see what could have happened during or just after the Norman Conquest that would make it the time when the Celtic language disappeared from Devon. Certainly the Norman conquerors wouldn’t have cared one way or the other what language their subjects spoke - the vast majority of them would not have spoken English anyway. And the many Breton knights who allied themselves with the Normans would probably have encourage the use of a language (Southwest Brythonic) that was so similar to their own. Although I can’t find the source right now, I am certain that I have read that the Normans made a point of granting land in the West Country and on the Welsh border to Breton knights because the cultures were so similar. In many cases this may have been done at the request of the Bretons themselves who certainly would have been aware of these similarities.

The only significance of the Conquest is that it is a major date in history. Although it signifies the very last limit of any Brythonic speech in 'Devon', as agreed by the main historians, most of that speech would have died out centuries before. A few isolated communities may have existed up to Conquest. As the BBC post points out, primary evidence is indeed lacking.

Tis a funny co-incidence....

But I was on another site very recently where I noticed Felup-le-Breton was also registered.

He disappeared from that site about 15 minutes ago, and by some strange instict I logged on here to find "Mineralman" had appeared here within a minute of that very moment.

I ask whether this is simple co-incidence???

Come clean Felup.