h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I don't like the suggestion of this topic for a 'talking-point'. Specially not in the way it was presented here. I'll take the time to explain why:

The suggestion to talk about 'mixed-race couples' proves at least two things:

First, it is NOT seen as normal, even though the rates are as high as mentioned. (I am sure this was not the intention). What is so special about 'mixed-race' couples that needs to be talked about? (No-one needs to talk about 'non-mixed' couples. Why? Because it's normal?).

Second, that 'race' is still being used and equated with 'culture'. Think about it. What is a 'race'? What are we supposed to talk about here? Black and white? What about the Hutus and the Tutsis, same colour different races? The term 'race' in this context must be replaced by 'culture'. The species Homo Sapiens is not divided into races. Furthermore the problem of 'mixed-marriages' has nothing to do with the colour of skin. Go to Northern Ireland to see what I mean.

2 - Some questions posed in the introductory part

Some questions are OK, but some are absolutely terrible. Whoever thought of them seems to not have given it much thought.

'Can cultural and ethnic differences strengthen or destroy a relationship?' Absurd! First, what does this have to do with 'mixed races'? Second, what do differences have to do with culture and ethnics? Say: What is the _ethnic_ difference between an Amish and a German lawyer?

'Would you turn down a blind date with someone if you found out they were of a different ethnic group to you?' Do you really expect someone to answer: 'Yes, I would'? BTW: Why 'blind date'?

'Have you been involved in a mixed-race relationship?' Read this question carefully. Involved? As what? A third-party?

'Do you know someone who has changed their religion in order to be able to marry their partner of a different race?' Absurd! Religion equalized to 'race'!

'Are you the child of an inter-racial relationship? What have been your experiences of growing up?' This question suggests that anyone who is inter-racial (note the grotesque use of the term) has had a 'special' form of growing up.

'Do the children of mixed-race couples benefit from a diverse cultural upbringing or will they never truly be accepted by either ethnic group?' Again: Culture = race. Absurd.

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Feel free to tear my arguments apart. I'd be pleased to be proven wrong.

HELL

Some very valid points HELL!

Does racism stem from highlighting the differences between people of a different colored skin? Does the term racism apply today? wouldn't a more accurate term be "culturism" (the clashing of different cultures)?

Maybe we should re-define the questions given in the topic introduction:

--

AMMENDED QUOTE: Britain currently has one of the highest rates of inter-cultural relationships in the Western world, producing a society that is culturally rich and varied. Does this statistic matter? Do mixed culture relationships show how diverse Britain and the world is becoming? Or do inter-cultural relationships erode cultures? We want to know:

Can cultural differences strengthen or destroy a relationship?

Would you turn down a blind date with someone if you found out they were of a different culture to you?

Have you been involved in a mixed-culture relationship?

Or do you only look for a partner within your cultural group?

Did you encounter cultural hatred because your partner was a different cultural to you?

How did your parents react when you took your partner home to meet them?

Do you know someone who has changed their religion in order to be able to marry their partner of a different culture?

Are you the child of an inter-cultural relationship? What have been your experiences of growing up?

Do the children of mixed-culture couples benefit from a diverse cultural upbringing or will they never truly be accepted by either group?

Tell us your thoughts and experiences on the issues affecting mixed-culture couples.

--

B.

That would have looked a lot better. But even so, where do you draw the line. Scotish and English have been different cultures living along and mixing for a long time. Germany is a potpourri of cultures. There's no such thing as a German if one gives it further thought. In that case, all the statistics you use in the header are pointless. It could even apply to citizens from different towns.

The problem is not culturism. the problem is coping with conservatism.

Conservative people in the sense of traditionalists (including religious fanatics) will tell you the story about how things must be kept. Why then do we have Indian Territories, or try to preserve Bavarian idiosyncrasies? Do the ones involved still want to do it?... Say: Do we only allow Sioux breeding with Sioux for the sake of cultural heritage? Is that absurd or what?

Thanks for answering anyways.

HELL

I agree that those are a better set of questions, nut I think you're getting a bit to worked up about it Hell. I'm sure the questions were not intended to be seeen like that and peoples exagerated anger at thing like this is why we end up with stupidly over the top "Pollitically Correct" terms and 'initatives' that just sound like whoever it is is scare of tackling the real issue.

Yes, you are right: Maybe I am exagerating a bit. However, I think I made my point clear that it's absurd to mix colour of skin with culture and religion. These things must be dealt separately:

If you leave it intercultural, you will have to think about what culture is, and why you call a Tamil a different culture and not a Scot. Strictly speaking you cannot set different standards.

If you want to talk about religion, no problem, but spare me the stories about colour of skin. Not all blacks are muslims. Not all Arabs are muslims. Not all Japanese are doing shin-to-ism.

If you want to talk about couples with different complexion, okay - This is a serious problem because of some retrograde parts of society. Here the problem is not intercultural.

In the last case, if this talking point is about colour of skin, then I have further objections: First, we mustn't talk about mixed-colour couples and what's so special about them. There is nothing special about them per se. Anyone who sees any difference other than the colour of the skin is discriminating.

What we _should_ talk about is the problems these couples and eventually their children are facing.

There is another thing, in many parts of the society black is not equal to black any more: A British woman married to an American black guy is something different than a Tamil woman married to a Senegalese black man. Many see it like this: First is OK (if the American man is not a rapper) and second is a bunch of lazy asylum seekers living off our taxes.

Phew,

H

Is culture the same as race though? Britain, as a country, has been invaded countless times throughout history (Romans, French, Vikings) and all these cultures have been assimilated with those of resident Brits creating the culture we have today. Surely the inter-racial (sic) relationships discussed are simply furthering the diversity of British culture, or world culture for that matter?

Now don't get me wrong here and assume that I'm equating relationships with people of a different creed (is that the correct word? Help?) with that of an invasion, far from it. It is simply another period in history where cultures merge. The world is getting smaller all the time and the sooner people realise this then the sooner racism can be overcome (I was going to use the word eradicated but that would have been wrong).

Being in a "mixed-race" relationship myself I can say that there seems to be a sense of intrigue from other people. "Is it any different going out with a black girl?" is something I'm often asked. In what way would it be different? I say to them, how do they think black girls act that would be different to the way, say, Asian girls, or (if we're equating race with culture) a Muslim girl might act?

Whether it be race, religion, or culture it shouldn't matter, surely the fact that we are all the same species, as you say, should unite us all.

Of course, I could be wrong. You tell me, I'm just a humanist and if you want to accuse me of humanism then that fine by me.

D-Mo

What I was objecting to was the equalizing of culture, belief and complexion from the suggestions in the talking-point introduction.

First of all the term 'race' does not apply to human beings. Britain, as any other country (some deny it, but what the heck) is the result of aeons of cultural melting (right). The inter-racial (sic) relationships discussed are not furthering the diversity of British culture. The fact that many coloured people are foreign rises the chance of them belonging to a different culture, which results in a furthening of 'british' culture. But (a) one can be white coming from Mexico causing the same effect, and (b) be a third generation black totally in par with british culture and not generate the effect. It is independent from the colouzr of skin (how many times do I have to repeat myself?)

I didn't get you wrong, you didn't even introduce the matters pertinent to creed so far. You were just confusing culture with race. It is not a matter of time to have cultures merging, *that* has been going on (as you mentioned before) for centuries (Vikings etc) It's a metter of velocity, of geographical space. People do not mix more, they just come from more far away (thus increasing the probability of mixing up culture with phenotype). The world indeed seems to be becomming smaller. For the sake of peaceful convivence discrimination must be overcome. A certain form of racism will (or even must) remain in the form of conservatism (Did I mentioned the Indian / Bavarian reservates problem before?)

Anyone who asks "Is it any different going out with a black girl?" is an ignorant lacking basic ethic / moral principles. All we can do is to hope they are intelligent enough to learn (This is your mission D-Mo).

The next sentence "Whether it be race, religion, or culture it shouldn't matter, surely the fact that we are all the same species, as you say, should unite us all." is a nice phrase, but should only apply to 'race'. Culture and religion work on the basis of exclusion. It shouldn't matter as long as some religious fanatics don't crash airplanes into skyscrapers to prove a (their) point.

D-MO: YOu are not wrong. You are not right. But then again no-one can judge that. We can only talk and find a compromise.

Cheerio,

H

Good points, well made, Hell.

The concept of mixed race is hugely blurred and means different things to different people.

One area of this is well highlighted in your (presumably) random example of a Tamil woman and a Senegalese man.

I'm of Tamil parentage myself and the resistance to Tamils in the UK marrying outside their ethnic subgrouping is very strong.

My parents are both Tamil, but one is Indian and the other Sri Lankan. I overheard a few nastily phrased comments at my sister's wedding about her being "half-Indian", "not pure Sri Lankan", "isn't it a shame" etc.

This is an extreme example, but there is general intolerance to marrying "outside".

Although, my personal view is that if one chooses to raise one's children in a foreign/multicultural society, one has to accept the possible consequences of that.

Personally, I've dated women from different countries/backgrounds and ('scuse the mushy liberalism), it's personality that counts every time!

Phew... It's been a long time, and people still read this thread?

Good!

See you around,

HELL

Guess so.
Anyway, surely if people are moving to the great multicultural socirty of the UK and complain when they aren't completley excepted, they can hardly complain when they are forced to or members of their family choose to mingle with the other segments of the society.

Hum.

I also think everyone should be free to do what he chooses. Forcing people to integrate is as wrong as excluding them...

Anyways, what we see here is 'segregation' at many different levels: on the personal level, in the family, in the neighbourhood, countrywide and the big cultural one.

Then - coming back to another topic - a marriage will ALWAYS bring envy and sarcastic/caustic dumb comments. (I heard enough stupid stuff on my own wedding party) When there's cultural 'difference' people find a good pretext to do their dumb commenting. When there's nothing like that, people have to find other grounds to be obnoxious. Economic differences, for example, are another nice one. If there's really nothing else to complain, they will find comments to suit the bride's hair, or the broom's suit... However, when people target the culture it's particularly hurting, because - well, I could change my suit, but not my cultural upbringing, or the fact that I was born here or there...

Anyhow, that's just human behaviour from it's ugly side,

HELL

If they don't want to integrate, people should live somewhere it's not neccesary. Nut if you're gonna isolate yourselves you've got to expect hostility. I know it's not pretty, but neither is human behaviour.

hi,just a reply to what you wrote.
firstly i feel that you have blown the topic way out of proportion, as i fell the main basis of the topic,was/is an attempt to answer many qustions that our, ever more changing socitities are facing.

i found that dicussions very enlightenin, and not the least bit offensive-(have you ever been involved in a mixed relationship?)
i feel is a fair enough question, just as if someone wher to say 'have you been involved in a relationship with a-west-indian or african guy?' (as i am of an afro-caribbean background).

it does mean it unusal, just a simple discussion, that friends often discuss.

i feel that the topic is becoming more of an issue,as more an more people, are wanting to date outside of our once over-conservative, and segmental society.

i feel that the debate is somewhat healthy, unlike that of a topic recently posted-'a strong culture is based on a strong history' to which i was quick to reply to the unhealthy and offensive attitude of different races(pls read)

i fell that maybe you should read and take things at face-value,like many people for e.g. black/ethnic, have to do each day in order to enjoy life without being easily upset or offended. it's just not worth it?

Well, for a Brazilian married to a Russian in Germany life has not been really easy sometimes. But... That's not mixed races.

My whole point was the equalling of race (ie. colour of skin / shape of eye) with culture, which is totally absurd.

Of course there must be a debate about coping with the braindead part of our society, even with some totally decrepit pieces of legislation in some countries (like Germany, I might add). That's not my criticism.

The point is: I do not think that this 'talking point' will incite a fruitful discussion about the changes occurring in our society in that way. You see, any society is composed of mixed 'races', if you will, as every individual has a slightly differing genome; I mean one could draw the line at some other phenotypical properties (eg. colour of the eyes) which would make as less sense as drawing the line at skin colour.

Now, to your further comments:

"Simple discussion that friends always discuss." I am also frequently involved in discussions such as this, with friends. However, I often get the impression that people (including myself in some instances) are merely repeating phrases they have heard somewhere. Most of the time people do not switch on their brains, in some cases it is that what will keep you off trouble (especially if alcohol is involved).

"..are wanting to date outside of our over-conservative, and segmental society" Again: This has absolutely nothing to do with race. Rich dates rich, poor dates poor. The colour (of eyes, skin and hair) is purely a question of personal taste.

I will check out the debate you are pointing to. The title is indeed bad.

I didn't understand your last sentence, sorry, what's face-value? You see, I am also a fish living in a foreign pond. I too have to put the treshold bar to a higher level. I don't care that most people think Brazil is a underdevelopped slum-cuntry, I will not go on here, you wouldn't believe what I have heard. However... You're right in most cases it's not worth it.

See you around.

HELL

hi just a quick reply, read you note and realiszed that you are again lokking to deeply into things taht may not be there,for that sake of i see it stirring up deabtes, for your mere pleasure.

In relation to 'over -conservative socity, and segmentation', it has evry thing to do with race and class , hierachy in societiy etc.

There mere fact that these social structures, have long been structured in our culture/society,they pose an obstacle of an social mobilization and intergration, be it in realtionships or lifestyles.

These barriers are being broken down,and therfore people are wanting to date into races which they previously, would have been adament to do, due to the prejudices they would have faced 20 or even ten years ago in the uk.

i beleieve thath the topic created by the site, is nothing more than an insight, for those ultimately interested- like myself, of dating out of there race for the first time.

you did'nt understand what i mean't by face-value- simple not taking things to heart, and unessicarily over-analyzing on certain every day issue, that are not detrimental, unlike the topic i suggested you read!