h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Silent Lucidity, you asked - "I know what they said she wrote. I agree it was disgustingly offensive. Did she do stuff like that a lot? I mean, was it consistent with the kind of person she was? "

Whether or not the x'ed out posting meant what the editors said it did or not, I have seen similar things written in the same 'style' as that 'translation' on another website, by LeKZ, after she left here. So although those words weren't like anything she had posted on h2g2, I will say that I think she was perfectly capable of writing them. I also think if she did write them, she thought she was 'clever' enough to get away with it.

Mina,

Thank you for the information. I don't have any information regarding who you are, how well you do or don't know the person in question, or whether what you said is true. As I've said, I am not willing to take anyone's word for anything I can't verify.

I know there is another website that has some other discussions going on. I had got impression that it was actually a group of her friends, and supporters. I prefer to stay away from there, since the decision reached here was prior to the existence of any other website, and based on information that was exclusively available here, at and before she was banned.

I hope that sounds like a fair and reasoned approach to you. Other people are also likely to give me input like yours, but honestly, since this is not anything on which the Editors based their decision, I'm not sure it isn't just an effort to bias my thinking. I assure you, I have no intention of letting the people who are her friends influence me any more than those who speak ill of her (who outnumbered her friends significantly in this thread).

~Silent Lucidity~

Yeah, the XXX post is odd.

Hi Silent Lu.

I was a participant in the "infamous intelligence thread", though only for a little while. I think that I can answer one of your questions about that thread, to wit, why wasn't the Entry sent to Writing Workshop? Good Q. I think that none of the participants in the thread were experienced/on-the-ball enough to realize that's what needed to be done. Not so with the anti-Evolution entry, thank Zarquon.

Anyway, aftert I bailed from the intelligence thread, I watched in bemusement as events unfolded, culminating in the banning of LeKZ. I didn't get involved in *this* thread until after post 1000.

I found it hard to believe that the XXX post was, as some were claiming, totally random. I'm a mathematician, and I know what *random* means. *Random* strings of characters don't look like English. OTOH, I didn't think it was in character for LeKZ to post something that vitriolic. Since then, I've seen them author some pretty nasty stuff.

So, I looked around, and I found the FoLKZ list. I joined up, and asked LeKZ about the XXX post. I finally got their version. Kurtis, of LeKZ, wrote something random and basically unrelated. Then there was some late night monkeying around with it - cut a phrase from here, paste it there, that sort of thing. Then most of the letters were replaced with XXX's. Then Kurtis made a few specific alterations to make it all look a bit naughty - make the first letter of certain words 'f', that sort of thing. Finally, the whole Frankenstein's monster was posted at the non-sequitur thread.

What's amazing, given this story, is that the post ended up matching so closely with a disgustingly offensive message. There are two explanations I can think of for this... ok, three.

1) LeKZ are lying. The translated message was the intended message, and the above history is spurious and invented after the fact to cover up having been caught red-handed.

2) The above history is basically true, except for mentioning that, while Kurtis, half-asleep, wanted to make the post look naughty, there was some part of LeKZ, who's not fessed up, who made damn sure that it was offensive.

3) The above history is completely accurate, and this is one of those uncanny cases of, "Be careful what you wish for (eg, to make this post look naughty); you just might get it."

Anyway, I've since become pretty good friends with LeKZ, and with several other people, as direct results of this fiasco, so there's your silver lining.

Welcome to H2G2's skeleton closet! Pardon the mess. Have a cup of ?

Yeah, the XXX post is odd.

Hi Silent Lu.

I was a participant in the "infamous intelligence thread", though only for a little while. I think that I can answer one of your questions about that thread, to wit, why wasn't the Entry sent to Writing Workshop? Good Q. I think that none of the participants in the thread were experienced/on-the-ball enough to realize that's what needed to be done. Not so with the anti-Evolution entry, thank Zarquon.

Anyway, aftert I bailed from the intelligence thread, I watched in bemusement as events unfolded, culminating in the banning of LeKZ. I didn't get involved in *this* thread until after post 1000.

I found it hard to believe that the XXX post was, as some were claiming, totally random. I'm a mathematician, and I know what *random* means. *Random* strings of characters don't look like English. OTOH, I didn't think it was in character for LeKZ to post something that vitriolic. Since then, I've seen them author some pretty nasty stuff.

So, I looked around, and I found the FoLKZ list. I joined up, and asked LeKZ about the XXX post. I finally got their version. Kurtis, of LeKZ, wrote something random and basically unrelated. Then there was some late night monkeying around with it - cut a phrase from here, paste it there, that sort of thing. Then most of the letters were replaced with XXX's. Then Kurtis made a few specific alterations to make it all look a bit naughty - make the first letter of certain words 'f', that sort of thing. Finally, the whole Frankenstein's monster was posted at the non-sequitur thread.

What's amazing, given this story, is that the post ended up matching so closely with a disgustingly offensive message. There are two explanations I can think of for this... ok, three.

1) LeKZ are lying. The translated message was the intended message, and the above history is spurious and invented after the fact to cover up having been caught red-handed.

2) The above history is basically true, except for mentioning that, while Kurtis, half-asleep, wanted to make the post look naughty, there was some part of LeKZ, who's not fessed up, who made damn sure that it was offensive.

3) The above history is completely accurate, and this is one of those uncanny cases of, "Be careful what you wish for (eg, to make this post look naughty); you just might get it."

Anyway, I've since become pretty good friends with LeKZ, and with several other people, as direct results of this fiasco, so there's your silver lining.

I'm not hoping to bias you, just to throw another perspective into the mix.

Welcome to H2G2's skeleton closet! Pardon the mess. Have a cup of ?

Yeah, the XXX post is odd.

Hi Silent Lu.

I was a participant in the "infamous intelligence thread", though only for a little while. I think that I can answer one of your questions about that thread, to wit, why wasn't the Entry sent to Writing Workshop? Good Q. I think that none of the participants in the thread were experienced/on-the-ball enough to realize that's what needed to be done. Not so with the anti-Evolution entry, thank Zarquon.

Anyway, aftert I bailed from the intelligence thread, I watched in bemusement as events unfolded, culminating in the banning of LeKZ. I didn't get involved in *this* thread until after post 1000.

I found it hard to believe that the XXX post was, as some were claiming, totally random. I'm a mathematician, and I know what *random* means. *Random* strings of characters don't look like English. OTOH, I didn't think it was in character for LeKZ to post something that vitriolic. Since then, I've seen them author some pretty nasty stuff.

So, I looked around, and I found the FoLKZ list. I joined up, and asked LeKZ about the XXX post. I finally got their version. Kurtis, of LeKZ, wrote something random and basically unrelated. Then there was some late night monkeying around with it - cut a phrase from here, paste it there, that sort of thing. Then most of the letters were replaced with XXX's. Then Kurtis made a few specific alterations to make it all look a bit naughty - make the first letter of certain words 'f', that sort of thing. Finally, the whole Frankenstein's monster was posted at the non-sequitur thread.

What's amazing, given this story, is that the post ended up matching so closely with a disgustingly offensive message. There are two explanations I can think of for this... ok, three.

1) LeKZ are lying. The translated message was the intended message, and the above history is spurious and invented after the fact to cover up having been caught red-handed.

2) The above history is basically true, except for mentioning that, while Kurtis, half-asleep, wanted to make the post look naughty, there was some part of LeKZ, who's not fessed up, who made damn sure that it was offensive.

3) The above history is completely accurate, and this is one of those uncanny cases of, "Be careful what you wish for (eg, to make this post look naughty); you just might get it."

Anyway, I've since become pretty good friends with LeKZ, and with several other people, as direct results of this fiasco, so there's your silver lining.

I'm not hoping to bias you, just to throw another perspective into the mix.

Welcome to H2G2's skeleton closet! Pardon the mess. Have a cup of ?

Pardon the *triple* post. Funny connection.

Sheesh.

GTBacchus,

Thank you for the information on the X posting. It is pretty weird, I agree. It's kind of ragged in terms of style. What really bothers me though is that while the meaning *looks* pretty obvious, everyone had all of that explained for them, in advance. If it were so obvious, why didn't they just follow procedure? Why the big circus, where people could see something other than what was actually posted, and not arrive at their own conclusions? That smacks of propaganda, and it makes me uncomfortable.

Also, if she'd wanted to give the Editors a really big insult, and go out with a bang, why post it in a remote corner of a thread almost no one used? Why not do it in blazing neon lights? I suppose people could argue that she'd be tee-hee-ing to herself if she got away with it.

Now that both you and Mina have said 'yes, she does sound like that', does she use gratuitously violent imagery, ethnic slurs, or bizarre stuff like the rulebooks and orifices thing? I don't know her, obviously, but she struck me as intelligent and articulate, and there are parts of the 'translation' (I'm not wholly comfortable with that word) that are inconsistent from a writing-style point of view -- no doubt someone could blame that on her multiplicity, but I really don't think anyone has any business guessing about that unless they are multiple, or preferably know her really well.

I didn't want 'character witnesses', especially not negative ones. That thing is so jammed full of hatred towards a person who *may* not have done what they said, but since she wasn't given a chance, she was totally character assassinated. Hoovooloo told me she'd said publicly that Kurtis' mistake was not checking to make sure no one could fit words in. Is she/are they reliably truthful? Would they lie outright to get out of a jam. I think most people would, but some wouldn't. Lucinda didn't. Friends often have values like that in common. I haven't read anything but that Intelligence crap and this, and it's pretty revolting reading. Since Arpeggio didn't say anything here, and dropped out pretty quickly there, that isn't a comment on *her*.

I've been here for about 36 hours, and most of what I've read has been at a level of nastiness that I haven't run across in most of my not sheltered, not young life. It's not LeKZ this makes look bad, you realise. I've been picturing the glee of public hangings and stonings all night.

Please do not offer me further negative comments. I am not going to count them, any more than I would count those of fervent admirers and defenders, who got their share of being trashed, too. I'd like to emerge from this with answers, and not just walk away disgusted, which it looks as though some people did.

~Silent Lucidity~

Silent Lu,

You said you didn't want character witnesses, but you also asked questions about LeKZ's character. I'm erring on the side of writing this posting.

"Now that both you and Mina have said 'yes, she does sound like that', does she use gratuitously violent imagery, ethnic slurs, or bizarre stuff like the rulebooks and orifices thing? I don't know her, obviously, but she struck me as intelligent and articulate, and there are parts of the 'translation' (I'm not wholly comfortable with that word) that are inconsistent from a writing-style point of view -- no doubt someone could blame that on her multiplicity, but I really don't think anyone has any business guessing about that unless they are multiple, or preferably know her really well."

There are only two contexts in which I've known LeKZ to use ethnic slurs. One is to condemn their use by others, and the other is to discuss them, clinically, from a social linguistics point of view. In other words, no.

Violent imagery, OTOH, is fair game, when the mood is right. (And anyone who disagrees can take their opinion and violently cram it up their.... )

That was a joke, the bit in parentheses, I mean. Hence the winking smiley.

As for lying, I don't believe that LeKZ would intentionally lie except in one situation: to save a life. Or something like that, y'know, if someone's personal security was actually threatened, and somehow telling a lie would help.

If anyone thinks I've said something unfair or wrong here, feel free to correct me, either here, there or somewhere else.

GTB

I would like to say a couple of things, if I can manage to be coherent and articulate for long enough

The first one is, Hoovooloo, you are not the only out of the closet Multiple still on site. There is at least one other but they have been trying to keep themselves from being too outspoken recently, partly through fear of rejection (but hey, you guys know all about that, huh?)

Secondly, while I do feel the Power That Be were wrong in the case of LeKZ (and many others) let's not enshrine the martyr's memory in sainthood as a result.

Some of us, who weren't at all happy with the way this site was shaping up when it returned after the Wilderness Weeks, set up a group in Yahoogroups when Mark decided to shut down the official h2g2 at Yahoo group because we kept criticising him in it (sound familiar?)This group (n2g2) has grown and prospered (83 at the last count), mainly because we can say owt we like there - as jwf once famously said "If you want to have a flame-war with someone go ahead. The rest of us will just leapfrog over you."

The main denizens of the group are pretty anarchic, anti-authoritarian and just downright weird (sorry plaguesville - don't tell on me ) but we do care (though we try to disguise it with flippancy)
~jwf~ offered LeKZ asylum there. They came and we offered them tea and sympathy, understanding and humour.
Unfortunately LeKZ appears to be all the wonderful things their friends and supporters claim for them . . .until you either disagree with them, point out one of their mistakes or refuse to let them "help" and guide you.
Some of our members included her in their general disrespect and teasing, some refused her repeated and insistent attempts to "help" them, so she (it's less confusing than 'they', OK?) got pretty annoyed with us.
She was consistently rude and downright nasty to someone that showed her every courtesy in return and when told by someone else that they didn't like her being rude to their friend she went over the top and spewed vitriol at the challenger (who, unfortunately, retaliated in kind).
Everyone else just carried on with abnormal life in the background and when LeKZ discovered she wasn't going to make big enough waves she left.

I think she was testing the limits.
Some of us are driven to do that, n'est-ce pas?
(Some of us are trying very hard not to )

While not agreeing with their decisions or their methods at all I can understand why the Italics here got upset. They're normal - they don't want their nice comfortable worldview rocked.

But I think, if there hadn't been either limits or worshippers (as there weren't at n2g2) she would have got bored and moved on pretty quickly.

Sorry, lost the plot somewhere there, and have to leave now.
I'll post this just in case anyone can make sense of it (P'raps anyone that can wouldn't mind explaining it to me?)

Tefkat. Two things.

One. I recognise your characterisation of LeKZ. I wouldn't say I agree with it 100%, but if you'd posted that description unlabelled and posed the question "remind you of anyone?" I'd have had only one answer in mind.

Two. "Multiple", moi? Point to one thing I've ever said which even IMPLIES I'm multiple, much less an "out of the closet" one. I admit I cultivate a certain eccentricity of image, one might even say bizarreness (and I do have to try, sometimes), but as far as having Dissociative Identity Disorder is concerned - sorry, there's just me here. I'm a bit concerned, actually, that anyone else might have thought that. I'm particularly concerned that people may think that my (eventual) conciliatory attitude to the LeKZ side in the Lifetime Suspension thread came about for reasons other than reasoned argument from that side and Kafkaesque nonsense from the other. So, for the record - I'm NOT a multiple person, of any kind.

H.
Laughing my a**e off. Then giggling a bit. Image to maintain, and all that.

Tefkat, hi. Mind if I reply to some of that? I felt like it may have been directed at some stuff I said; forgive me if I'm offbase on that.

I don't consider myself a worshipper of anyone. I consider LeKZ a friend. She (they, shi, whatever) hasn't ever tried to "help" me. I'll certainly agree that she has flaws. I responded honestly to SL's direct questions about her likelihood to use certain kinds of language and her likelihood to lie. I don't think that consitutes beatification. Do you?

I've never been to n2g2, and I don't know anything about what happened there. I'm sorry your experience with LeKZ was negative. Mine hasn't been.

Anyway, all (mostly) of the posts are still around for anyone to read and come to their own conclusion...

*Rushes to reread thread to see who made the comment her defective brain managed to misinterpret so spectacularly*

Humble jalopies Hoo

Oh I knew I should have just kept the big mouth shut.
GTB, I don't know whose post I was replying to but I certainly wasn't suggesting that you or anyone else here for that matter was beatifying anyone. I just got the impression, in the time since all the hooha, that there was a general sort of drift in that direction, if that makes any sense?

I wasn't trying to level any criticisms at anyone, Honest Injun (er... Honest Native, um, indigenous wodjie?).I was just trying to show t'other side of t'coin.

Certainly, the tenor of LeKZ's repeated communications with my friend were "I am an omniscient and truly wonderful genius with unique and far-ranging experience of mind-altering techniques and if you don't accept my pontifications as holy gospel and accept my help you are obviously an extremely sick bunny who will start to fragment in the immediate future."
She also accused my friend of being at least sixteen other researchers on this site, and couldn't accept that she was wrong.

Look, we're all complicated people. That's what being human entails.
It makes life interesting.
It shouldn't be a problem.

Please don't ever be offended by anything I say. It isn't meant that way. it just always seems to come out wrong.

I liked LeKZ. I also had a great deal of sympathy (and empathy) for her (hir, them, whatever).
So did my friend, but she had too many other people trying to mess with her mind to be able to afford to let LeKZ join in (and she's never been comfortable taking ANYTHING on faith).

Look, I'm sorry, but I shouldn't be on here at the moment. I'll get into trouble in RL. If I've offended anyone else please accept my apologies.

Can I take my foot out of my mouth now please?

Silent Lucidity,

With the caveat that I was a significant participant in all of the issues you are asking about (though somehow managed to miss being as heavily targeted for reasons I can only speculate on) and am therefore biased, yes you have stated things very much (almost exactly) the way that they seemed to me then and seem to me now.

As far as the time-space distortion/warp (paradigm shift?) which you noted, I can only say that LeKZ, I, and others have speculations some of which are here on h2g2 and other (largely extensions) thoughts not available here as to what happened. There are even some statements that might be taken as proof for those speculations. However, I will not bring those forward since they represent out thinking. Both I and LeKZ feel that you are being very fair and accurate in you summation of what happened.

You will certainly see no further comments except in direct response to questions you might ask on this matter. We do not want to influence your thinking in any direction, since we are eager to see the outcome of this effort on your part.

(Please note, I did not confer with LeKZ on this statement but am interpreting her remarks elsewhere. This is not a message from LeKZ.)

Barton

Apologies, also, to Einauni Muznobotti (Post 1247).

I didn't mean to be rude and I didn't really think you were Hoovooloo.
I forget my husband's name too and the children all answer to "Whatsyourface" or the dog's name.

?

Re-reading what I wrote, I can see that the disclaimer at the end doesn't really hold with the content. I got carried away and I simply ask that you take the 'we's and change them to 'I's which is what they should have been.

Barton

Tefkat.

I wasn't offended. Or, if I was, I got over it quickly.




GTB

Tefkat,

My mother had a similar problem with five of us running around. She had a slightly different solution. She would reel off all of our names in one long string and end with, "You know who you are!"

The dogs were a different problem. We had three a good part of the time. All three of them came when any one was called or anyone walked into the kitchen.

The gold fish refused to come at all, no matter what name was used. We learned to accept that.

Barton

Silent Lucidity: I dig that song. It's got some pretty good vocal range to it, too, so I'm proud to say that I don't mangle it too badly at the karaoke machine...


I feel for you, man. I came to the Intelligence thread late, and read through all the backlog after the fact, so I know what you're going through. And I was part of things that you still have yet to cover. Read her homepage conversations, especially those made by Aces, and you'll fill a gap in the history.

I would characterize myself as a friend of LeKZ. Now, I know you're not interested in character witnesses for or against, and I respect that. But you did ask a couple of character questions, and I feel that I can answer them in a factual way that does not present a bias. I will do so to the best of my ability.

"does she use gratuitously violent imagery, ethnic slurs, or bizarre stuff like the rulebooks and orifices thing?" - Yes, she does use such imagery. I've exchanged such imagery with her privately. I'd provide examples, but I don't think they would be permitted here.

As for the ethnic slur, if you perform a search on the phrase "Jewish American Princess" on this site's search engine, you will find that it was used once by Arpeggio, describing the rich and useless New York society, prior to the X'd post.

The ragged style of the 'translation' is inconsistent. Even with her multiplicity, LeKZ manages to keep a smooth and consistent style throughout any individual piece of writing. This is because she generally allows only one personality to speak at any one time. Others may interject comments, but that does not appear to be the case in the piece of writing in question. I'm sure you've already noticed this in your research.

And lastly, "Is she/are they reliably truthful?" I think you've already answered your own question with the association with Lucinda. She is on record as saying that her personal honor is very strict, and that among other things, she *will not* lie. She is strongly adamant about this. In the 6 months in which I have corresponded with her/them, I have only ever seen one situation which drew these statements into question... the X'd post. And since she has demonstrated high personal honor to me by admitting errors and apologizing for them immediately, I tend to believe her when she says she will not, cannot, deliberately and knowingly lie.

A fair analysis of her personality would be that she is unafraid of making bold statements, and expects to be called on her errors when she makes them. She holds others to that same standard. It rubs people the wrong way at times. She has frequently said something like "they don't like people who are right, or unapologetic, or worse yet, unapologetically right." (paraphrased)

Hope this helps.

And hey, when you're done with this situation, we can get you caught up on all the new ones. Lucinda wasn't the only one suspended last week...