h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"Christians who still try and convince themselves that Christmas is their religious festival are kidding themselves."

Yes, indeed. I'm eternally grateful to our dearly departed founder, the Colonel, for letting me know that the birthday of Mithra(s) has been celebrated on December 25th since 600 BC.

Not to mention long-standing celebrations of the winter solstice, which date back millennia...

"I've still got a couple of days of holiday left"

Nice for some!

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Let's pay our respect to the Saturnalia, the true origin of Christmas. When Rome became Christian, the authorities found it difficult to persuade the ordinary people that the new religion really was better than the old, particularly as a huge feast was held in December with the drinking of alcohol, singing, dancing and lots of other good Roman fun. The solution? Turn the Saturnalia into a Christian festival and give it a Christian meaning (erm, let's see fellas, what can we celebrate? I know! The birth of Christ. But didn't that occur in about July? Ah, they won't know that). Now all Roman peasants are happy to convert to Christianity because they still get their yearly booze up.

Don't forget all the other midwinter festivals that pre-date Christianity. For fairly obvious reasons, most early cultures have developed one to reassure themselves that the sun will return eventually. Adopting that kind of date for Christmas was indeed a very shrewd move for those Roman Christians.

The question remains, though - why did they convert in the first place?

Interesting question. I must look into that. A guess would be that the ruler was converted and thus decided that everyone else had to follow the same religion too. Religion tends to work that way, eg. who's the reigning monarch at the moment? Mary. Oh, we're all Catholics again then. I don't think that the mass of peasants really cared either way as long as they had an excuse for a feast and someone to pray to for a good harvest. This is the reason why so many religions are a mish-mash of much older traditions. Whatever the population was told to believe in they just intigrated with their exisiting beliefs and traditions. Look how well Catholicism and Voodoo have mixed in Haiti.

"why did they convert in the first place?"

Well, the Prime Directive of Christianity, paraphrased from what I was taught as I grew up (Catholic), is:

Respect God, and treat your fellow citizens as you think they should treat you.

As long as you leave the definition of God open , this is (IMO) acceptable to just about all right-thinking people, religious or not. If you currently belong to a faith that is not so tolerant/decent, you might decide to convert...

Just my two pennyworth, as they say.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Hello all.

I would like to join the FFF. Mainly because I can't really think of any other organization that I would belong to.

I'm not necessarily an aetheist or agnostic. Nor am I really a Christian/Buddhist/Moslem/Hindu/etc.

I'd venture to say that I'm someone who continually searches for the existance/non-existance of god/gods everywhere I go.

If I had to pick a chair, I'd call it simply Seeker. Perium: The Dauntless/**=/ holding the chair of Seeker for Truth and Untruth.

Let me know what you folks think.

thnx

Welcome Perium, I'm sure you'll fit in just nicely. I can't think of a better reason for joining a club than to establish your non-club credentials. Puts me in mind of something Groucho Marx once famously said, or was it Karl Marx, never mind, I always get the two mixed up... Anyway, jump in and make whatever noises you like, as you consider (in)appropriate.


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The worst thing about Christmas, IMO, is the *expectation* that all decent members of a society will join in the spirit and have what is loosely termed 'fun'. Those who opt out are regarded by most others as a bit of a bad sport, at best, or an out-and-out heretic at worst.

This pressure, I think, has become more intense in the wake of the economic uncertainty of the last year (in particular after Sept 11th, of course). It's almost seen as a patriotic duty, these days, to spend large amounts of money on things that are not really needed or even particularly wanted, just to do our bit to keep the economic fires stoked and burning.

So... maybe it's true, as deackie suggested above, that all societies get the winter festivals their rulers think they deserve. We end up with something *called* Christmas, but which really has as little to do with Jesus Christ as a Scientology convention. What we have, really, is a secular post-Christian celebration of laissez-faire capitalism, the God of our times, and its values...

For myself, I'll start thinking about spending more money, and consequently having more 'fun', in the unlikely event that I ever get a bloody pay rise...

I don't really go in for the whole 'fun' thing at Christmas. Drunkenness isn't really my thing, you know?

Laughing at people with hangovers is, but that's because it's their own silly fault and I have been known to be quite vindictive at times. I mean, you'd think people would learn...

My theory is that the hangover is a byproduct of the killing off of all the neurones which had decided that they we're going to enforce the 'I'm never going to drink again,... ever...' statement,(which commonly follows a heavy night out) by all the rest of the neurones who really rather enjoyed it at the time actually thank you very much , meaning that the average duration of 'ever' is roughly 48 hours

Time for another methinks!

Welcome, Perium. Glad to have you on board.

You're added to the page as 'Seeker for Truth and Untruth', which means I got to play with some of the Colonel's GuideML.

Anyway, like Lear already said, feel free to jump in anytime, with whatever occurs to you to say. I hope we can help you find some of that Truth and Untruth. I haven't seen any of either around lately, but it's certain to turn up eventually.

My that was an interesting round of contributions.

Personally I enjoy a good party as much as the next person. But I am also fed up with the crass commericalisation of an pseudo-religious anniversary.

deackie, why would I want to show respect to a guy (god?) characterised by a soft drinks campaign in the early part of the 20th century? Santa is no more 'traditional' than Coca-cola.

Santa was indeed invented by a certain soft drinks company in his current US guise but was around before then in the guise of St Nicholas. He would leave oranges and apples for good children and a lump of coal for bad children. I won't bother telling the Christian story of St Nicholas, I'm sure we've all heard it a thousand times. Interestingly, however, a pagan god associated with the winter solstice bears a remarkable resemblance to a man in a red suit and this was who I was refering to. I wasn't suggesting the worship of crass commercialism.

Perhaps the reason I have always enjoyed Christmas so much is that my family has never gone in for the commercialism. We do buy each other presents but never hugely expensive ones. We do spend more on food and drink but not an extortionate amount. We have always enjoyed making our own decorations (this used to be a family event in the lead up to Christmas). And most of all Christmas was a time when the whole extended family could get together in one place. I don't know how we used to manage that one, a Christmas miracle perhaps. Now the family lives further apart different sections of the family meet separately but we still have good family Christmases and do non-expensive, non-commercial activities like sit around playing card games. I wouldn't give up Christmas for anything.

"...a pagan god associated with the winter solstice bears a remarkable resemblance to a man in a red suit and this was who I was refering to."

So who is he? A brief but thorough biography will do.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

"So who is he? A brief but thorough biography will do."

That's like asking "what is the origin of any belief or ritual?" Not an easy question to answer. Father Christmas, as recognised in Britain, is mentioned as far back as the 15th century in a carol, so was clearly around long before the invention of carbonated soft drinks. When it comes to biographies of pagan gods it gets more difficult as the history of Britain is one of continuous conquering and integration of other cultures who in turn bring their gods. Their gods become integrated with the existing gods, names get changed, attributes shared and the whole thing gets very muddled and difficult to unpick. I can't remember the name of the god I was thinking of but I do know that he didn't wear the colour red (not an easy colour to produce a few thousand years ago) but wore a similar looking outfit. I would guess that the red was added by advertisers as it's an appealing colour and matches the colour of their brand. There is also an association with Odin who rode through the night during December to reward the good and punish the bad.

A brief summary would be: take original pagan god associated with Winter Solstice, mix with Roman ideas surrounding Saturnalia which occurs around the same time. Wait for Roman Empire to be converted then add a dash of Christianity to taste. Allow to simmer in a blended mix of Viking, Angle, Saxon, Jutish, Danish and Celtic belief. Introduce more European Christianity and shake well. Finally sprinkle on a large quantity of American commercialism and enjoy

Having done a very quick internet search I have also found links with Poseidon, Neptune and a Germanic god, Hold Nickar.

There's nothing so fascinating as tracking the evolution of religious belief. How can anyone believe in one true god? All religions seem to be a lovely, eclectic mixture of a variety of cultures, beliefs and practices. Ain't religion grand?

"How can anyone believe in one true god? All religions seem to be a lovely, eclectic mixture of a variety of cultures, beliefs and practices. Ain't religion grand?"

deackie, that is so insightful maybe it ought to appear on the FFFF home page.

Anyone got any other cultural anecdotes on how absurd Christmas has become across the world?

I can recall seeing something on a children's programme (the Teletubbies, I believe) that showed european tots (Italian or French maybe) smacking a log with sticks to reveal (as if by magic) presents deposited on the ground behind the log. Presumably this is something to do with the traditional Yule log.

I can also remember something about the fore runner of the cola Santa being dressed in dark green.

Any more for any more?

How about:

Christmas-the commercialization of Christianity.

Remember folks if you're not buying it, you're just not a good christian.

Well, I'm clearly not a good Christian, but that's okay because I don't believe in it.

Many religions really only make sense in the context they originated in - hence, for me, Wicca makes a great deal of sense because it's a modern interperetation which therefore fits my worldview, satisfies my need for 'something else' to be Out There, and is conveniently free of obligations aside from moral behaviour - which we should all be doing anyway.

Can you get much better than that?

No, didn't think so.

I'll admit to not being a devoted practicioner, but thinking in that way helps sometimes. I'm still hovering on the agnosticism border though so don't worry, I'm not lost yet...

It took me a long time to find a good way to believe in something else "out there". Eventually, I decided to wait for an epiphany. I got one, and it consisted of a rather arbitrary mix of quantum theory and the Celestine Prophecy. I decided, "this'll do", and went from there.

We could run an FFFF weekly religion lottery. We'll put all FFFF members names in one bag and we'll put a large variety of religious beliefs and practices in another, give them a good shake to mix them up a bit and then hold a draw. Some lucky winner could go away with a whole new religion. sounds like the strange hotch-potch of relgions found in new age shops.