h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

> "It would end up Laden and Al-qeade vrs Taliban and AMERICA"

Note that the USA have not offered any help to the Taliban in apprehending Al-Qaeda, and show no signs of doing so - That would be that 'negotiation' thing that Dubya is so afraid of. The most the USA might do is the kind of support they're currently giving the Northern Alliance, and even that's unlikely: the public would be unlikely to support giving weapons to the same people they've spent a month preparing to attack.

no winners...Laden punished......Taliban no longer threatened by Laden........Al-Qaeuda punished.......Taliban no longer threatened by them.....USA removes threat of insane murderers.....Diplomatic action started between Taliban and America.....the only loser is Laden and his murdering cronies. Sure, bad things will happen to all, but to fight now prevents Laden and Co. from gaining power, or terrorizing more innocents. Those not murdered appear to win. Those who maintain or gain freedom appear to win. Those that threaten, terrorize and oppress others, lose. They are imprisoned, they are removed from power.

You can't just go around saying "peace, love, and harmony, man!!" That is all well and good, but as you do that, someone pours anthrax in your coffee, burns down your home, rapes your family and bombs your building. Why do they do this? Because your government has given you the freedom to do as you please, and they want absolute control of your life.

Force has to be fought with force.
**SKIT ONE**
LADEN: "Die non-muslem pig-dogs!!!!"
HIPPY: " Love is stronger than hate!" and tries to hug Laden
LADEN: kicks HIPPY in the groin, spits in his face, slits his throat and enslaves his family, and then proceds to take over the rest of the free world through terror and dirty fighting.
Losers, any one that values their freedoms.

**SKIT TWO**
LADEN: "Die non-muslem pig-dogs!!!! I kill you in the name of Allah!!!!"
NAVY SEAL: shoots LADEN in the head. The free world stays free. Afgan becomes free.
Losers, Laden and Co.

Turning the other cheek is all well and good, but if you turn and get stabbed, turn and get stabbed, turn and kicked in groin, turn and get exposed to Anthrax, you need to realize you ran out of cheeks to turn awile ago, along with the fact that you are probably dead as a door nail.

I am for Peace, but I am not for peace if it means sitting still while my rights are removed, my family in danger, my country attacked.

You can have your peace, if it means living in Pax-Islam, the peace of the damned. The only peace Laden and Co will allow is with them in control, and all non-muslems are dead.

Not stopping Laden now would be like not stopping Hitler. Hitler wanted to kill all Jews. Laden wants to kill all non-muslems. Hitler used terror to rule and expand his power. Laden uses terror to rule and expand his power. Both had the permission of their states to murder innocents. The difference is with Laden we can use our hindsight, and realize where he is trying to take the world. We can stop him early on, and save much heart break, much sorrow, much needless death.



phreak out

The Taliban has shown no sign of WANTING to aprehende Laden..... THAT is why we don't offer to help.

From what I heard from a card-carrying satanist I had the misguided to share a flat with a few years ago, the principle of the belief is "do what thou wilt" and to hell with everyone else, a belief borne out by his behaviour. Though I am pretty sure satanism is far from being about sacrifice, pillage and such, it is (to me) execrable. But it seems to be more about fraud, parasitism and embezzlement than oppression and international terrorism.

No, it's for the Holy Forces of Good to fill that remit.

> "The Taliban has shown no sign of WANTING to aprehende Laden..... THAT is why we don't offer to help."

"The USA has shown no signs of WANTING to help..... THAT is why we don't offer to apprehend Laden", says a hypothetical Afghan, looking a little shocked at being beamed into an h2g2 forum.

The Taliban aren't going to risk an (even worse) civil war because the USA *might* help, any more than the USA are going to risk jeapardising their sources because the Taliban *might* hand over Bin Laden. That's why you need negotiation.

entry on Satanism:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A230211

*note to self - going to a conversation from /info takes you to the FIRST 20 * 4 weeks later.

Still, salient point nevertheless...

Lucinda, stop digging. If, as you say, the Taliban's latest offer is a significant development which is unprecedented in the years of negotiation, then you'd better hope that the bombing campaign is stepped up. Call me a cynic if you like, but I don't think that the Taliban's unprecedented change of heart is unrelated to the bombing that started four days earlier.

Well Lucinda, the way it's put there I can't really fault it. I can only presume this particular satanist considered "do whatever you want" meant "do it at everyone else's expense". Not a true believer, I guess. But then, religion is only a mutually-reinforced delusion ruled by whatever anyone can remember was said at the time...

The USA has shown it wants Laden. It bombs the Taliban for refusing to help. Maybe if they didn't refuse to help.... The Taliban could offer to help quietly, as in not over the TV. If they are not helping Laden, he would never know about it....

phreak

Kid, slightly off topic, but two points about Satanism... First, the basic precept is "Do what thou wilt, that it harms no other", and second, it has nothing to do with the Christian concept of Satan. It was started as a deliberately manufactured belief system in the 19th century, and the name was chosen specifically to irritate the "mainstream" religous community.

Wildly, in fact . Points taken - apologies.

To link what is happening in the Middle East and what has happened in the US is really unavoidable.
so long as Israel keeps the occupied territories and maintains Illegal settlements in them, and displays the characteristics of an occupying power, then we will have no peace here. This policy is only making people more desperate.
If the world, and I say the world and not America is to win a any war, because this is a threat to the whole world, then we MUST address it causes. So that the ones responsible in such acts can never be find supporters and sympathizers in the streets. To handicap them. A "terrorist" becomes a "freedom Fighter" when he can identify sever injustices that are taking place, then the people will gather around him, giving him support for he is giving them hope, especially if he could play the Victim.

If only all this energy and money spent on this war was spent on solving the some of the injustices that are taking place, we would have less Bin-Ladens around the world.

Peace & Justice for ALL

David Horsey's cartoon in the paper today adressed this. It depicted Uncle Sam and a bearded, knife-weilding, turbanned man wrestling in the dirt. A woman in paisley stretch pants, wearing a peace sign medallion, says to Sam: "Perhaps you should think about what you may have done to provoke him?" Uncle sam replies, while restraining the his opponents knife-hand: "Swell Idea! Help me get his knife first, will you?"

It's not exactly subtle, but a valid point nonetheless.

Peet>>>>{lucinder to if you like}

You still have not responded to post #745. I eagerly await your words of wisdom. I am sure you are not one of those people who hide behind thier computer spouting inflaming rhetoric on the condition of the world. You know the type, the liberal apoligist who is so frightened of fellow men that they will cowtoe to mad men who seek to destroy them and their nieghbors in hopes that thier apeasement will save thier own hide. I have great faith that you are a person of intelligence and high morals who will enlighten all of us less endowed with your soloutions to the problems we now face.

{just to put it in prespective imagine this tradgedy has happened in your country instead of america. In 1998 a terrorist group declares war on you and says to the world second largest religion that it is their duty to kill yuo and your fellow country men whenever possible. That on sept 11, your capital and largest city where devistated, thousands of your citizens were killed {inluding people from all over the globe for just going to work} then your country is terrorised by anthrax being mailed through out the country and you worry that at any moment your family can be killed for opening the mail or walking into a building. The leader of this group then comes on telivision and all but admits thier organization did the deed and promises more to come. That you are just a person trying to raise a family and have never harmed another soul in fact you even give to feed less fortunate people around the world. Do you feel you are in a race to get these people before they get you? Our do you have a more humane soloution? Think deep now and give me your honest reaction and then your soloution.

Re: My solution, I would send a small, highly specialised team in country to eliminate Bin Laden quietly, in a way that wouldn't allow him to be portrayed as a martyr - say, for instance, giving him a fatal case of a particularly messy form of food poisoning... That's my honest response - I don't suggest it's any better than anyone else's.

I see *many* problems with the current response. To use a simplistic analogy, I wouldn't have to be a driver to recognise when someone else is driving dangerously. I don't have to be a liberal apologist to recognise when someone else is going to great lengths to only look at one side of a complex situation. I don't have to be a surrealist to recognise a fish in a tutu.

I trust I'm making myself clear...

Peet, to continue your analogy. Suppose you are sitting in your living room. A car smashes through the wall and kills your daugther, then backs out and drives away. Would you be happy letting him get away with out punishment? What if the next day you get a phone car, and the driver threatens to continue killing until every one you know and love are dead. Would you just sit on the sideline then? Or would you insist the police step in?

The problem that needs correcting, the problem that causes these terrorists to attack is there jealousy. They are not a powerful country. They are not rich. In fact, the very thing that keeps them in power, their religon, is that which cripple their country the most. They can't let their citizens look with clear eyes at how good freedom is. They cloud the eyes of their nationals with lies about others, about how they are sinners, about how they allow women equal standing as men(OH NO!!!). They lie about what freedom is, claim it is a gate into sin, so they can stay and maintain the granite fist they have over their country.

A personal story.

This last summer, while working as a detassler(a farm job employing large numbers of people in corn states) I had the privilage of talking with a girl who, while born in America, lives in Pakistan(an islamic country), due to her fathers job. I asked her what she is most happy to have while back in the states. Her reply: The right to wear blue jeans. I asked her why. The responce: While in pakistan, if a women is seen wearing anything other than a full body dress covering all skin, she is outside the law. Men(MEN) would have the legal(BullS**T) and religous right to stone her, spit on her, hurt her. gee. Islamic countries, arn't they great? so free, so modern.


phreak

ME, Starbirth, Phreak, and some others: will you not look around and see others have been hurt by the same things you have been hurt by? Not by the same people, but by the same attitudes, by the same weapons?

ME, I have said things I hated myself for saying, in this forum, about Israel's Government. I won't come off the fence, but I hoped to see you take a step further into the middle.

Starbirth, Phreak, you know I sympathise. But you must understand that America is not the only country who has suffered terrorism. And don't think I mean England's sufferings from the IRA, because even that is limited compared to other countries' sufferings.

Lucinda (such a minor point, compared to the others) you don't mean the IRA (I don't think!) You mean the Real IRA, the UDA, the ULF, and several other paramilitary organisations. The IRA put their guns away in exchange for politics. Oh, and where's Xanthia? I miss her sharpness - there's too much propaganda here for me to get through without her!

x x Fenny (still hoping to find Zero Intolerance and peace)

Your solution is simplistic and would achieve nothing if it could be done for the following.

1- Sending in special forces to search a terrian like afgan is futile the chances of finding him in a mountainous land held by enemy troops is nil.

2- killing 1 man would acomplish nothing you must remove the group and its ability to use bases while being supported by a rogue state like afgan


I agree that it is a very complex situation. I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and the last thing I want is war. I have children of my own and fear that they would have to go to war. also the thought of other peoples children dying saddens me.

I am of the opinion it is always better to talk and work out problems than to fight. however you can not reason with mad men who think it thier duty to kill anyone who does not follow their ideology. If we do not stand up now we not only leave ourselfs open to more attacks by them but by all groups who have a beef with us. I am a surviver and if the only way to protect my family is to fight then i will fight.

One other thing you say confuses me and is out of line with your previous posts. You say your solution would be to infiltrate afhganistan and assasinate Bin laden using biolgical warfare all the while critasizing the way america has handled this situation.

I don't need to be a veterinarian to reconise bulls**t.

Am I making my self clear......

Starbirth, well said.