h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This one has really been in PR for toooooo long, and still doesn't seem ready for the Edited Guide. Wonko, how would you feel about moving it to the Writing Workshop until it's really ready?

Mikey

Seconded!

The more I look at it, the better I think it is in the first place. My intention was to provide readers here with valuable information, and I think the entry makes my point clear.

Please have a new look at it: if you think it is clear, please include it in the giude. Otherwise we shall forget it.

Thank you,
Wonko

I think your writing is clear and interesting, but I still don't think this entry is suitable as is for the Edited Guide. Rather than being a well-researched, factual, and balanced article, this is really mostly just your opinion and observations.

From my own personal observations, as well as the reading I've done in the area, I would disagree with the majority of what you say.

Some quick examples:

While I'd agree that "not trying as hard" might be a major reason for relationship failure, I don't agree that the only other reason is people playing games. Two major reasons I've observed are:

1) people change. this has nothing to do with "not trying hard" or "playing games". people change, and it's not unheard of for them to change so significantly that what they want out of life is now incompatible with each other, no matter how hard they try to make it work.

2) people often delude themselves in the pre-relationship and early-relationship periods into either "not seeing" significant problems in their partner or into thinking that they will be able to "change" or "fix" their partner. This appears to be especially common when the problems include violence or substance abuse. again, has nothing to do with "not trying hard" or "playing games" -- it's all about willful delusion.

Another point where I'd strongly disagree is your contention that all "games" are learned from the parents, and that individuals are doomed to repeat the games of their parents. While this may be true in some cases, it can't be as broadly generalized as you make it out to be. There are those who go overboard in not wanting to be their parents and go to the other extremes. There are those who learn all their "games" during adolescent/young adult relationships from partners and friends (I actually would consider these potentially more harmful than the ones learned from parents). There are those who are self-aware enough (sometimes via counseling) to be aware of such patterns and avoid repeating them.

Mikey

Yup. See my incredibly long breakdown of this article in Post 15. This article has some opinions which are (quite honestly!) dangerously shortsighted, and the 'final solution' isn't a solution at all.

Hate to weigh in here again, but I stand by the points I have already made about this article further up the thread.

It is not imho suitable for the edited guide as it stands.

Incidentally I have recently been doing some reading on the influence of genetics, family upbringing and peer groups on peoples' behaviour, and family upbringing appears to be the least influential.

In families where children are adopted, and there is no genetic link, it is easy to compare behaviours and track the influence of upbringing and peer group.

Peer group is more influential. Even for toddlers, the peer group is very important. The children of deaf parents will learn spoken language from the children they attend nursury with *at the same rate* that the children in the nursury who have hearing parents are learning the language.

Wonko - you know I respect the amount of thinking that you have put into reaching your opinions, but you also know that I disagree with the way you present some of your opinions. This is fine as a piece of opinion, but as an edited entrie it remains deeply flawed.

Ben

Mickey, your two points just summarize what I try to say:

1) People change - to become more and more like their parents. Even if they went into the other extreme in the meantime, they finally repeat the same mistakes of their parents.

2) Your partner is drinking? I bet one of his parents does! Delusion? Yes, you could have seen the obvious.

Just forget that you can avoid it through awareness. You can't! Don't fool yourself.

Ben, of course a toddler learns to speak from other children if the parents a deaf. But you won't deny that parents have by far the biggest influence on their cildren. I know that there have been some research indicating that the influence of the peer group is important. It is wrong.


Yes, this entry is not the result of years of literature research, as there is none. For the same reason you reject my thoughts: all of you think you are clever people who can overcome their heritage.

But you can not: you are doomed.


Sorry to have brought the bad news to you. But maybe you have the guts to prevent this wisdom from being censored by you. And maybe some young girl or boy reads this and pulls the brake before marrying someone who drinks, or will drink, and her/his parents are drinking.

That is the whole point of my entry and 20 years of personal experience stand behind it.

Nice greetings,
Wonko

Wonko - we are at impasse.

My reading, and 20 years of my own personal experience - leads me to similar but different conclusions to yours.

At this stage in human understanding we do not have definite answers - though you clearly think that you do as an individual or else that we do as a species.

It is an interesting and thought provoking piece, but it is NOT suitable for the edited guide, and if you are unwilling to change it because you do not think that there are changes to be made in it, then to my way of thinking it should go from Peer Review.

Warmest regards, as always

Ben

I agree with Ben.


Mikey

How about titling it 'Partners who Play Games'. And generally write it to say that people who play games are one kind of bad partner, what happens, how to deal with them, how to work it out, and so forth. That way, people who believe that all bad partnerships are due to game-playing, and those who believe that there are other factors, can both agree with the entry?

Blimey Lucinda, you are a genius!

B

It might also be interesting to link this to the entry 'The Structures in our Lives' <./>A721162</.> which is being Sub-Edited at the moment.

I think there's a consensus that, this this entry is not ready for the edited guide, or vice versa.

While some might agree with Wonko's oppinions, some do disagree. This demonstrates that this entry is not balanced. Furthermore, this also demonstrates that it's an oppinion piece.

I would suggest removing this thread from PR. There are better suited vehicles for this entry (the post?).

HELL

If Wonko amends it along the lines suggested by Lucinda, then the entry might be a goer. However, I agree with you, Hell, that it's not in a fit condition at the moment.

Wonko, how about withdrawing this entry (go to PR and click on 'remove') and resubmitting it when you and refocussed and restructured?

Well, Wonko, what's going on?

Mikey

Wonko's left the building

Time, perhaps, to request a move to the FM?

Hmm... seconded. It's too bad, really - Wonko was very enthusiastic about this entry.