h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Damn these simulposts...
Mikey - as long as you're polite, which you unfailingly are (I think), I have no gripes about your intentions.

Reviving the WW should be a major priority. I don't know if it'll happen though, because it's such a lonely job to work in the WW. I certainly don't have any desire to venture into that area of the site.

"I did not say that comforting the subset of newbies and PR inexperienced people that were the LD'ers is the same thing as the betterment of the site."

No and nor did I.

I gave as an example a group of people who came to this site, were made comfortable here, and proceded to contibute nothing towards the site. And I'm talking about the whole site here, not just PR - none of the LD lot seemed to make it as far as PR, thank heaven for small mercies.

Well, okay.
Frankly, I don't care about the LD'ers as a group, because they were just a big exception, as odd as that sounds. I certainly hold no grudge against them for using the site.

I wonder how much of this reputation of PR is really due to people looking at threads and being frightened by them and how much is due to rumour and gossip? I'm no conspiracy theorist... well, yes I am, but that's besides the point

I'm in PR every single day and I have to say that the vast majority - vast majority - of threads are entirely wonderful and not lacking in fluff. There disagreements of course, but there will be whenever someone knows more about their subject than the reviewers.

Some PR regulars have methods of commenting which other PR regulars think are not the best way to proceed (I'm talking about the lists of corrections here), but we all have our own way of doing things and we all make a contribution. Putting someone down just because they want to see good English usage in an entry is really not helpful.

I do not accept the idea that PR is a scary place - it's only a forum on a website fer cryin' out loud, not a school playground or a pub. And nor do some of the people here act like playground bullies or drunken louts. PR is there for a purpose, and its goals are clearly set out. In order to achieve that purpose a certain standard of quality has been set. Anyone who thinks that the standard is too high should put forward an argument why it should be lowered. Anyone who wants to lower it themselves by submitting a poorly written entry and then complaining about the guidelines is simply trying to make their own queue - y'know, like when you're waiting in line to make your purchases in a shop and someone walks in the door and starts asking the assistant a whole bunch of questions instead of waiting their turn. They've simply decided that the rules aren't for them, they're going to do whatever they want.

Anyone who does that in PR will get short shrift, as they should, and often do IRL. Anyone who doesn't won't. It's that simple.

If someone writes an entry which shows that they've obviously taken time to RTFM, even though the entry isn't great, and may be far below the standard necessary to get into PR, they'll be treated with respect, at least by me. I won't speak for anyone else. Even if they havn't RTFM, I'll also usually treat them with respect.

There have been so many discussions in the last year or more about why so many people submit unsuitable entries to PR, and time and time again the design of the website has come up - buttons for submitting entries to PR being on plain view to all as soon as they register, exhortations to submit your entry to PR without sufficient links to the guidelines, and I'm convinced that this is still one of the main reasons why so much crap gets submitted to PR. People don't RTFM because they don't even know there's a FM.

I believe that if you want to change something it's always best to do it from the inside, so to anyone who criticises PR and who is not a Scout, join up.

"I do not accept the idea that PR is a scary place - it's only a forum on a website fer cryin' out loud, not a school playground or a pub."

Well choose not to accept it all you want, it is a scary place. No one likes to get criticized mean spirited-ly and no one likes to be embarrassed, even if it is on a forum on a website. In my first few weeks, I felt embarrassed all the time - maybe not scared, but embarrassed definitely. The only reason I kept on chugging on was that I'm a hard-headed SOB

There's a saying, Gosho, that the customer is always right. While I won't argue that the PR submitters are right about everything, I like the spirit of that saying very much. I should hope that we make every effort so that people coming out of PR say 'That Gosho is helpful. I'm going to say nice things about him and Peer Review.'

"Anyone who does that in PR will get short shrift, as they should, and often do IRL. Anyone who doesn't won't. It's that simple."

The idea that people who don't read the rules should get punished does not appeal to me at all and seems very dangerous. I see no advantages to this - just disadvantages. It seems vindictive and mean, to be honest. If you see a newbie that has lost his or her way, would you guide him or her back onto the right path or would you turn him back on his way out of the magic forest of h2g2?

I didn't say that people who don't read the rules should get punished, I said that people who wilfully ignore the rules (particularly those who then think that they have the right to throw a tantrum) should be made to understand that their behaviour is not acceptable.

Well, okay I can see I didn't quite understand your customer metaphor on first reading (not to say I do understand it now, but I think I get the thrust of the thing)

By the way, when did the right to throw a tantrum get taken away? I enjoy that right almost every day on this site.

"Well choose not to accept it all you want, it is a scary place"
No, it isn't. Some people perceive it as such, but again, I say that it's only a forum on a website. No-one is going to hit you. no-one is going to steal your bag and empty its contents off the top of the gymnasium, no-one is going to ask you step outside, no-one is going to push a glass in your face.

It's a virtual place, it doesn't exist in reality, and anyone who ventures in there will never meet 99% of the others. How can that be scary? Any fear is purely in the mind. If you have a good entry or a not-so-good entry, but in both instances are amenable to criticism and suggestions - which a surprisingly large number of people aren't, and which another large number of people haven't understood is the reason for PR - why should you fear anything about PR?

I long for the time that people begin standing up for themselves in PR instead of running off to mummy in a flood of smileys at the merest criticism (I think I might have said that before, and quite recently).

Man, how I hate that smiley.

"No, it isn't. Some people perceive it as such, but again, I say that it's only a forum on a website. No-one is going to hit you. no-one is going to steal your bag and empty its contents off the top of the gymnasium, no-one is going to ask you step outside, no-one is going to push a glass in your face."

Yes it is. Those are not the only things that are scary, you realize? Of course you do.
Up until a while ago when I stopped giving a damn, I was scared by PR. That primal emotion of fear crept into my spine each time I pressed the Submit for Review button. Why? I was scared of being embarrassed and forced to withdraw it. I was scared that someone would say my writing sucks or challenge the entry's originality.

"Any fear is purely in the mind."

So's a nightmare. I've woken up from nightmares with ghouls and goblins that I'd much rather not have experienced! Physical pain isn't the only kind of pain.

By your logic, the satisfaction I get from a friendly conversation on this site isn't real satisfaction because I can't reach out an touch the person. Hell, by that logic, I'm not frustrated right now or confused right now. I guess I must not be.
! I'm cured! Gosho cured me by telling me that my fear isn't fear and that my emotions are based on virtual reality and therefore invalid!

"I long for the time that people begin standing up for themselves in PR instead of running off to mummy in a flood of smileys at the merest criticism (I think I might have said that before, and quite recently)."

I long for the time when people won't feel the need to use the smiley. I think that's the difference between us.

I don't believe there's any need to use the smiley Jodan. I think that's the difference between us.

I think an important issue here is that "scary" is inherently a subjective term. Just because a place or experience isn't "scary" to Gosho, or to me, or to any number of other people, doesn't mean that there are a good number of others who've found it quite scary indeed.

No, no one is going to be physically harmed or interfered with in Peer Review. But while those may be the only things in life that really scare you, Gosho, that certainly isn't going to be the case for everyone -- for some people, a big scary thing in life is the fear of being publicly embarassed.

And while I think it's true that the vast majority of PR threads do not in any way appear to potentially shame or embarass the author, I think for some people, seeing one or two really bad threads can completely sway their perception of the place.

Now, y'all may well say that if people are that easily swayed, we're well rid of them anyway. I wouldn't agree, but I can see where someone would reach that conclusion.

One thing I have never gotten a clear answer on, though, is what use being rude serves in PR. It's not like the rude replies get the driveler to change their behavior in a more effective way than civil replies. By and large, the drivelers do *not* change their behavior -- and the ones who do generally respond better to civil replies than insulting ones. I've never seen any evidence that the insulting replies discourage the driverlers from returning any more so than do civil replies or simply being ignored.

From my perspective, it seems like there is a population -- albeit small -- that is potentially useful to PR and the EG and is negatively affected by PR rudeness. Counter to that, I'm not aware of any population that benefits from PR rudeness -- it could be that those making such comments benefit by feeling better themselves, but FM has stated that this isn't the goal here.

So if a few people are losing out, and no one is benefitting, what's the point? Or are there some hidden advantages here that no one is mentioning?

Well, I guess I must be a big wimp then...
Because... my mommy said I was really sensitive and I get hurt when big bad people say mean things about that.

That's a very good point Mikey, but this isn't really 'in public' is it? As I mentioned, most of us will never meet the others, so what impingement could one person here have upon the life of another? People who don't matter to you shouldn't be given the power to embarrass you, and although a lot of us 'matter' to each other in terms of the h2g2 community, and a small handful have become friends IRL.

I do say 'shouldn't be given', because ultimately we give other people the power to embarrass us just by letting them get away with it, and there is more than one way to deal with it, which I won't go into here because this isn't the place, and I have to start getting ready for work soon.

Ultimately it boils down to what we were taught when we were kids - 'Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me'.

S'true.

You're a poop-head.

You drink wee-wee

S'true.

Really? There are websites for people like you

So I'm told

Sure.

What would being offensive and rude achieve more than just ignoring the post wouldn't, though?


'It is vital that Scouts are unfailingly polite to Researchers. When posting to the the Peer Review Page, you must always consider the feelings of those whose work you are criticising.'


Or are people just deciding which bits of the Code they like now?

Well Skankyrich,

Go back and read post 22...maybe "unfailing politeness" and "civility" have a different meaning in the UK than here they do in other parts of the world...tell me if you think these qualify:

"Words fail me"

"If ever there was a reason for not letting people post to PR for a probationary period... or at all"

"It would appear that viewing all this WF has adversely affected his literacy!"

"My, I know we are not supposed to be rude to newbies, but it requires all of my self-control when I see semi-literate efforts like like thrown carelessly into PR. I mean, the author hasn't even bothered to type 'bajo' properly. Why should we treat this kind of stuff with respect when it appears that even the author can't afford the same kind of treatment to their chosen subject matter?"

If my first effort had been greeted with this kind of cruel derision...it would have been "hasta la vista, baby"..fortunately I meet some kind people (Woodpigeon, St Louie Woman and Anahaga) who set me on the path of rightousnesss.

Calling a stranger illiterate hardly seems like unfailing politeness...or is it just me.