A Conversation for GG: Flags

Peer Review: A4549584 - Flags

Post 1

Gnomon - time to move on

Entry: Flags - A4549584
Author: Gnomon - U151503

I'm not sure if this is suitable for the Guide as it stands; it may be too bitty. It's hard for me to tell, having written it. What do people think?


A4549584 - Flags

Post 2

Danny B

I like it smiley - smiley

A couple of things:

"A flag flying on a ship is known as a 'jack'."

Not every flag flown on a ship is a jack - the jack is specifically a version of the national flag flown at the bow of a ship. There are several other types of flags flown on ships, including ensigns, pennants and rank flags.

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has a flag which is known as the Union Flag, or when flown at sea as the Union Jack."

The whole 'Union Flag on land; Union Jack at sea' thing is a bit of a myth - this article from the Flag Institute is very informative: http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7.2

smiley - cheers


A4549584 - Flags

Post 3

Bluebottle

I agree - good article without being bogged down by too much detail. Explaining where the different Naval flags fly, such as jacks, ensign masts etc could be left to a different articles specifically about Naval flags, and how the White Ensign came to be adopted by the Royal Navy.

Perhaps mention the Isle of Wight's Flag? (Only kidding) Or that the rank of 'Ensign' comes from the person whose job was to fly the Ensign? Or that the country in the world that burns the most American flags each year is America?

<BB<


A4549584 - Flags

Post 4

Gnomon - time to move on

That's all interesting stuff. Except for the Isle of Wight flag.smiley - winkeye


A4549584 - Flags

Post 5

Gnomon - time to move on

BB, can you find me a reference for the burning of American flags?


A4549584 - Flags

Post 6

broelan

That is probably because the proper method of disposal of a "past its prime" American flag is to burn it. Burning the flag as a means of disposal would be an entirely different beast from burning the flag as a political statement or symbol of protest.

Really well done, Gnomon smiley - ok
A good amount of detail without being bogged down in detail. The only thing that stuck out for me was the entries hanging down there at the bottom, I would have tucked them into the text somewhere but that's just me. Your perogative, of course.

Were all standards really wooden carvings? Granted my only exposure to standards is in the fantasy genre, but I always had the idea that they were kind of banner-like, hung straight down from a cross bar at the top of a pole.


A4549584 - Flags

Post 7

bobstafford

A jackstaff is a small vertical flaf staff in the bow of a ship, any flag flown from this is refered to as a "jack" hence Union Jack smiley - smiley


A4549584 - Flags

Post 8

Danny B

Except that the name 'Union Jack' predates the use of jackstaffs on ships by over 150 years - the link to the Flag Institute posted above explains it in more detail smiley - ok


A4549584 - Flags

Post 9

bobstafford

Flags appear to have been invented in China. They arrived in Europe gradually and their use then spread from Europe to the rest of the world. The ancient Greeks, Romans and Egyptians didn't use them, instead using standards, a carved wooden figure on a pole, to lead troops in battle.
Um well not quite, the Romans had 4 types of standards and each had an officer to carry them

Aquilifer ('the eagle bearer'): The legion's eagle was the physical representation of the legion. If the eagle was lost the legion was disgraced and the unit was often disbanded.
Signifer ('the standard bearer'): Each century and cohort had a standard bearer. The standard (signum) was the unit's emblem, typically three disc emblems mounted vertically. These displayed the unit's awards and decorations. The top of the standard had an emblem, commonly a spear, a hand, or a wreath.
Imaginifer ('bearer of the standard with the image of the Emperor'): This was a rank dating from the reign of Augustus (27 BC - 14 AD), and was to encourage the troops' loyalty to the Emperor. The Imaginifer was only stationed in the leading cohort.
Vexillarius: or vexillifer (flag bearer). The vexillum (flag) was hung by its top edge from a 'T'-shaped flag staff; this slowly fell out of use - the Praetorian Guard were the last unit to use the device. A Vexillation Fortress has been named after a company standard and a company of men. The cavalry equivalent was the draconarius, who carried the standard known as a draco.

When not being carried, the unit's standards were stored in a special shrine in the principia or headquarters building.  They were considered to be sacred objects, and sacrifices were made to them.  The loss of any standard in battle, particularly the aquila, was the worst possible disgrace for a unit. This has become the reason the captured standards have become the most potent evidence of military victory up to the time of the Crimean war. Captured standards were always carried upside down as an insult to the loosing side.

I hope this helps a little.


A4549584 - Flags

Post 10

bobstafford

Sorry this was the postsmiley - blush

Flags appear to have been invented in China. They arrived in Europe gradually and their use then spread from Europe to the rest of the world. The ancient Greeks, Romans and Egyptians didn't use them, instead using standards, a carved wooden figure on a pole, to lead troops in battle.

Um well not quite, sorry to intercede but the Greeks did have flags
Herodotus mentions the flag of the Admiral as a semeion.
Plutarch mentions episema, which was the distinctive signs and symbol of each city or ship.
Thucydides noted the use of a semeia, carried by standard bearers, who were always stationed near the leader, they they were raised to signal the start of battle, while when they were lowered they signalled the end of it.
Another sign is mentioned which when hoisted by order of the general or the admiral proclaimed the initiation of battle. It was a piece of red cloth and was called foinikis. It started as a signal of the Athenians and the Greeks of Sicily. It then was adopted by the Macedonians and later by the Romans and the Byzantines.
The military flags of the ancient Greeks were the episema, the semeia, and the foinikis.

And the Romans had 4 types of standards and each had an officer to carry them

Aquilifer ('the eagle bearer'): The legion's eagle was the physical representation of the legion. If the eagle was lost the legion was disgraced and the unit was often disbanded.
Signifer ('the standard bearer'): Each century and cohort had a standard bearer. The standard (signum) was the unit's emblem, typically three disc emblems mounted vertically. These displayed the unit's awards and decorations. The top of the standard had an emblem, commonly a spear, a hand, or a wreath.
Imaginifer ('bearer of the standard with the image of the Emperor'): This was a rank dating from the reign of Augustus (27 BC - 14 AD), and was to encourage the troops' loyalty to the Emperor. The Imaginifer was only stationed in the leading cohort.
Vexillarius: or vexillifer (flag bearer). The vexillum (flag) was hung by its top edge from a 'T'-shaped flag staff; this slowly fell out of use - the Praetorian Guard were the last unit to use the device. A Vexillation Fortress has been named after a company standard and a company of men. The cavalry equivalent was the draconarius, who carried the standard known as a draco.

When not being carried, the unit's standards were stored in a special shrine in the principia or headquarters building.  They were considered to be sacred objects, and sacrifices were made to them.  The loss of any standard in battle, particularly the aquila, was the worst possible disgrace for a unit. This has become the reason the captured standards have become the most potent evidence of military victory up to the time of the Crimean war. Captured standards were always carried upside down as an insult to the loosing side.

I hope this helps a little and is not to pickey.



A4549584 - Flags

Post 11

J

Good entry Gnomon. I enjoyed reading it. I think it's important to avoid getting bogged down in trivia in entries like this, and I think you've accomplished that without ignoring some interesting facts.

I think I once started an entry on unit flags in the American Civil War. If I started it, I certainly never finished it. I'm not sure why as it's a fascinating subject. If you look at any number of those big Civil War battles, there are always accounts of soldiers risking their lives to avoid letting their unit's flag fall into enemy hands. Alternately, the others were always risking their lives to try to capture someone else's flag. Of course, in cold military terms, this was pretty odd, but it was an important for morale to protect one's flag, and it was very prestigious to take another person's flag.

And speaking of the US Civil War - the Confederate Flag continues to be a big dividing point in the American South. My sister used to live right next to the state capitol building in Columbia, SC, where the Confederate Flag continued to fly up until very recently (I think they took it down recently, but I'm not really sure). It was a pretty big political issue down there, which gets at the heart of the importance of flags - what they represent. Patriotism to some, racism and oppression to others. There's something similar happening in Libya right now. The plain green flag that you mention was associated with oppression to some people, so protestors created their own flag.

A couple of other things that occurred to me while reading this...

Another very important "international" flag is the Red Cross flag (not the England one). In war, the Red Cross flag is a symbol of a medical noncombatant, just as a white flag is a symbol of surrender. Islamic countries use the Red Crescent flag.

Anyway, just some thoughts I had while reading it. Thanks G smiley - cheers


A4549584 - Flags

Post 12

MMF - Keeper of Mustelids, with added P.M.A., is now in a relationship.

Great entry.

Another unusual flag is that of Switzerland, being the only square National flag.

Also flying a flag upside down is a sign of distress, but only of use in flags that have a top and bottom, British ensigns and Antipodean flags spring to mind. Don't know what happens with Tricolours!

Look forward to it appearing.

MMF

smiley - musicalnote


A4549584 - Flags

Post 13

shagbark

A slight correction- in the section on flag etiquette you stated that he US flag <> That really needs three more words-
unless properly illuminated. Flag etiquette does allow 24 hour display if there is a light continually shining on the flag.

Another matter that has been omitted is hierarchy.
All US states have there own flag, and many cities and counties do also. When on adjoining flagstaffs the staff of the Nation must be tallest, then the State Flag, then the Local flag.
When Using the same pole The Nation's flag must always be above the state flag.
For more on the US Flag etiquette see http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf


A4549584 - Flags

Post 14

Gnomon - time to move on

Thanks, Shagbark. I don't want to include the complete American Flag Code, just a sample of it, but I'll certainly mention the illumination thing.


A4549584 - Flags

Post 15

broelan

Shagbark, I think most of that is already covered in the American Flag entry smiley - ok


A4549584 - Flags

Post 16

Danny B

"Another unusual flag is that of Switzerland, being the only square National flag."

The flag of the Vatican City - technically an independent state - is also square.


A4549584 - Flags

Post 17

Gnomon - time to move on

Yes, I already mention that Switzerland and the Vatican have square flags. Thanks.


A4549584 - Flags

Post 18

Danny B

Sorry, Gnomon, I should have checked. I was just replying directly to MMF's comment smiley - flustered

On the subject of squares and rectangles, is it getting a bit too obscure to note that all flags have a specified ratio of height to length. While most flags have a simple ratio such as 1:2 (eg, the Union Jack) or 2:3 (eg, the French Tricolour), some have strange dimensions, such as:
USA: 10:19
Qatar: 11:28
Denmark: 28:34

And another random thought that occurs to me: flying flags at half mast as a sign of mourning was originally to allow death's invisible flag to fly at the top of the flagpole.


A4549584 - Flags

Post 19

Gnomon - time to move on

I think mentioning the ratios is getting a bit obscure, although I was aware of it.

Do you really believe that about Death's flag?


A4549584 - Flags

Post 20

Danny B

It's repeated in several places, including some fairly respectable flag encyclopaedias, histories and the like, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's a modern rationalisation of a traditional practice. Makes for a good story, though! smiley - winkeye


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