h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Cars are a terrible idea. If I ever wanted to kill someone, I'd make sure I did it with a car, not a gun - because the penalties are something like ten times smaller.

Yes, I have one and enjoy driving it, but use it only when necessary.

No. I find it coincidental being that a need for such laws evolved right about the time that the problem was showing itself.

Of course one could question whether this was simply the result of rebellious behaviour, but I think that the bigger question is Why would we need gun control laws in the first place?



My point: guns are a bad thing. It hasn't changed.

As for straw man fallacy, I'll provide you with an example of one by answering your next argument with your own (ealier) statement...



'A gun is merely a tool whose purpose is to harm others or prevent others from harming you.' -- Blatherskite the Mugwump

I would say that your gift for consistency is flawed. You presented your position quite clearly initially, but now you are introducing alternate uses for guns, such as recreation and hunting. These examples deviate from your original position, even defeat it, in fact. This is straw man fallacy, BtM. If you wish to argue the alternate uses for guns, fine, but let us do so in a different argument. This particular argument is about their use as tools for murder and self-defense.



And returning to my point, why would anyone have to buy a gun with that in mind? What sort of society inclines one to make such decisions, to think such things?

Guns are a bad idea. They've never been a good idea. They'll never be a good idea.

You have a very poor grasp of logical fallacies. Allow me to review for you. A straw man is the construction of a false argument from the opposite side, so it can easily be knocked down. An argument that leads the conversation away from the original purpose is called a red herring.

And my argument about alternate uses for guns was not a red herring, it merely expanded the point. A gun is a tool, but as with all things, it is more than what it was originally created for, depending on how it is used. For example, a screwdriver is designed to turn screws. But it can also be used as a prying tool, and in a pinch will do as a stabbing weapon.

"And returning to my point, why would anyone have to buy a gun with that in mind? What sort of society inclines one to make such decisions, to think such things?"

The sort of society in which situations are possible where the use of a gun leads to a less horrible outcome than not having it available for use. Like, say, this one.

You have to remember two things:

1) The police are not legally responsible to protect you. If they can't arrive in time, oh well. And that assumes you ever get the opportunity to call for help.

2) Most incidents where guns prevent crimes never involve firing. 95%, in fact, according to this link: http://www.davekopel.org/2A/Mags/Hold_Your_Fire.htm

A criminal sees the gun and departs. Can you name another article you can produce that can peacefully resolve a potentially violent attack with a 95% success rate?

And, according to the same source, "1,700 to 3,100 homicides a year are actually justifiable homicides committed by citizens using a firearm to defend themselves or another person against violent attack."

But you'd rather just be attacked?

You have a very poor grasp on reality, muggle, and you don't know nearly as much as you think you do. This much I can assure you. I can also assure you that you don't understand me. But that's OK. No biggie. Sometimes I don't understand me.

Listen. Your argument for alternate uses for guns completed contradicted your opening statement in this thread. This very fact ended your story. So why are you still at it then? Play all of the semantical games you like with it, pull out your fallacy brush and paint it any colour you wish, it doesn't change a thing. And your very persistence on this matter speaks volumes about your mission here.

It's really no big deal if you're wrong about something. That's how all of us learn. The problem is that many people today would rather die than be wrong, and this makes for a very close-minded society... one that never learns anything.

So stop spitting venom at people, it's not healthy. Guns are a bad thing. Always have been, always will be. Why would you want to speak on their behalf? Why would you want to justify their use?

The rest of your post is just more of the same nonsensical babble, I'm afraid. It completely misses the point because you are simply thinking too small, avoiding the big picture. You are failing to look at the root of the problem. You are attempting to justify the use of guns in our society, suggesting that they are no worse than automobiles and other unintentionally destructive tools serving our mode of living wihtout so much as looking at the problem as a whole. You are making the tragic mistake of pursuing an argument that was proved to be contradictory and you are now making the tragic mistake of using anemic statistics in a futile attempt to support it. Just let it go. You've already defeated your own argument.

Whatever happened to this place anyway? When it first started out it was a productive place to visit, frequented by objective and mannerly people. Now it seems to be filled with arrogance, smart a**es and ignorance. What a shame. I am truly disappointed.

the fact is what if someone was invading your own privacy and armed themsevs.
protecting yourself and your family is something that we take for grantted

People that buy a supercar know they'll never be able to clock speeds of 200 mph, but they buy the car anyway, just to know they *might* be able to. That's the 'coolfactor' if you will...
The same goes for firearms. A new gun is cool if it can shoot more bullets in less time than a different one. Those bullets are meant for one use only: to shoot people.
The people that buy hunting rifles use totally different bullets (pellets, not solid bullets) and don't go hunting with Uzi's and things like that. A totally different sort of gunowner, and one I think is not included in the subjectof this conversation.
Even the people that buy guns for 'selfdefence' buy a gun that was meant to kill people, not deers. And even in selfdefence, why would anyone use a rocketlauncher for that? (those really are for sale in the US).

Phoenix: Stop knocking down straw men and acting like a child. If you came to this site looking for debate, you've found it. But don't pretend you've won an argument because I've violated some rule you made up on the spot and which doesn't actually apply.

Stamping your feet and saying, "GUNS ARE BAD!", is not an argument. If you would actually like to enter an argument, and one that isn't a bunch of pseudo-philosophical nonsense, then I'd be glad to hear it. Until then, go back to the minors. You're out of your league.

"Whatever happened to this place anyway? When it first started out it was a productive place to visit, frequented by objective and mannerly people. Now it seems to be filled with arrogance, smart a**es and ignorance. What a shame. I am truly disappointed."

Those objective and mannerly people had too many encounters with a$$holes like you, and modified their behavior accordingly.

Pardon me, but who do you think you are, exactly? What's quite obvious to me is that it is you that is acting like an ignorant brat. Although this doesn't come as a surprise as you appear to have a habit of defeating yourself with your own contradictory statements, and then cry when you burn yourself. So who is the child?

Listen. My first encounter with you involved your making a completely uncalled for, entirely unnecessary, unprovoked and smartass remark. This alone spoke volumes about you. But then you felt the need to pursue the matter further by searching (via a visit to 'My Space' no doubt) for a position of mine that you could disagree with so you could get the last word in somehow, and you thought this one to be a good opportunity for you. Meanwhile all you've managed to do is to further display your intentions, your instigatory manner and your ignorance. Sound fairly accurate?

Save it, punky. Go find another sandbox to play in - this one is entirely beyond your capacity. And stop spitting venom, it's unhealthy. Grow up a little and find a new hobby... and a purpose.

You won't receive any more of my attention - you're simply not worth 'talking' to. Bye bye.

What reality are you living in? Because you seem to be making up its rules as you go along.

There is no contradiction. A gun's original purpose is to hurt people or stop them hurting you. But it can also be used for other things. The two facts are not mutually exclusive. I don't know if the problem here is that you lack the intellectual maturity to recognize that, or if it's just that you lack the emotional maturity to deal with arguments against your own position, or both. But either way it's your problem, so deal with it.

"My first encounter with you involved your making a completely uncalled for, entirely unnecessary, unprovoked and smartass remark." - My first encounter with you involved you dredging up an old conversation regarding a factual error in an article I'd written, and though the topic had already been thoroughly dealt with you felt the need to point it out yet again. This led to my called for, necessary, provoked, and smartass remark. Apparently you didn't learn from your mistake any better over there than you've learned over here.

The lesson you need to learn over here is that, if you are going to lecture someone about fallacies, as you so rudely did in post 22, then you'd damned well better get your facts straight, or the person will be equally as rude when he tells you you're full of it.

This concludes your second lesson in online debate.

Begin the third lesson: quit whining about "spitting venom" when you're throwing around terms like "ignorant brat" and "punky." Look back on post 24 and you can see where you were the first one to make it personal. Up to that point all I'd said was that you don't understand fallacies... and you don't.

You can't defend the moral high ground from your current position. Give it up.

And the fourth lesson will be coming soon, because I just know this isn't the last you're going to post here...

Dismissing all and any comments by the charlatans...

I maintain my opinion that guns are a bad idea because they make murder almost too easy to accomplish. Additionally, any alternatiuve uses for guns are irrelevant to this point: if we didn't have them, then there simply wouldn't be gun-related recreational activity in our culture. No biggie. Perhaps we'd even be 'reduced' to shooting arrows at targets or even hunting with them, but even this doesn't change the fact that such weapons were designed with a single purpose in mind - killing.

Furthermore, any argument that suggests that guns are no worse than automobiles or trains or planes or even pollution, based on the premise that these, too, result in deaths, is self-defeating for two reasons as I see it: (1) If this was the case, then guns would just be another (very effective means of accomplishing death) thrown into the mix, and (2) guns *are* the most effective means of murder. And we are reminded of this every time we read or hear about a child getting his hands on his father's gun and blowing a hole in him or his friend, by accident. We are reminded of it every time we read or hear about a gun accidentally going off and killing someone, or when we hear or read about how someone accidentally pulled the trigger when they didn't mean to, didn't really want to. And this last example, incidentally, says something about the dangerous idea that people can somehow be expected to own or handle a gun responsibly.

All of this aside though, I cannot think of anything good that comes from a gun. I cannot think of one positive purpose that a gun serves. Of course this very statement will undoubtedly invite the police and military rebuttal, or even the hunting rebuttal, but these miss the point, in my opinion, and lead us into another, larger discussion about the mentality of our culture in general. So, sticking to the topic at hand, I cannot see how an instrument of death, such as a gun, is a good thing in any way. All recreational uses aside, how is a gun ever a good idea?

Guns are a bad idea. They've never been a good idea. They'll never be a good idea. They are merely the product of an ill culture. And having lived in areas of the world where guns play a minimal role at best, I can back this statement with the utmost confidence.

Oh, how very mature. Put your fingers in your eyes and say "La la la la, I can't see what you're writing."

"(1) If this was the case, then guns would just be another (very effective means of accomplishing death) thrown into the mix,"

Are you suggesting that guns are the only means of accomplishing death?

"(2) guns *are* the most effective means of murder. And we are reminded of this every time we read or hear about a child getting his hands on his father's gun and blowing a hole in him or his friend, by accident. We are reminded of it every time we read or hear about a gun accidentally going off and killing someone, or when we hear or read about how someone accidentally pulled the trigger when they didn't mean to, didn't really want to. And this last example, incidentally, says something about the dangerous idea that people can somehow be expected to own or handle a gun responsibly."

Your problem is that you are failing to make an argument specific to guns. This same argument could be applied to anything. For instance, a simple adjustment to the language gives us:

"Cars *are* the most effective means of murder. And we are reminded of this every time we read or hear about a child getting locked in the car and dying of asphyxiation, by accident. We are reminded of it every time we read or hear about a car accidentally going off the road and killing someone, or when we hear or read about how someone accidentally stepping on the gas when they didn't mean to, didn't really want to. And this last example, incidentally, says something about the dangerous idea that people can somehow be expected to own or handle a car responsibly."

"All of this aside though, I cannot think of anything good that comes from a gun. I cannot think of one positive purpose that a gun serves. Of course this very statement will undoubtedly invite the police and military rebuttal, or even the hunting rebuttal, but these miss the point, in my opinion, and lead us into another, larger discussion about the mentality of our culture in general. So, sticking to the topic at hand, I cannot see how an instrument of death, such as a gun, is a good thing in any way. All recreational uses aside, how is a gun ever a good idea?"

Your lack of imagination is irrelevant.

"Guns are a bad idea. They've never been a good idea. They'll never be a good idea. They are merely the product of an ill culture."

Guns are bad, mmkay. If you use guns, you're bad. Cuz guns are bad. Mmkay.

"And having lived in areas of the world where guns play a minimal role at best, I can back this statement with the utmost confidence."

What the hell kind of wild-west nightmare do you think the rest of the world lives in?

Listen. I don't know what your problem is (and I really don't care), but don't make it mine.

If you have an opinion on the matter, fine, express it. But don't attack mine by merely spitting venom and slinging mud. This type of behaviour severely diminshes any chance you might have at achieving a productive debate or gaining anyone's respect.

You strike me as the type of person that takes perfectly benign posts/opinions and uses them to initiate a p*ssing contest. Well, leave it alone in this case - I'm not interested.

Having said that, my interest in this topic is spent. There's only so much one can say about guns. They are merely a byproduct of our mode of living, our mentality, in my opinion. Therefore this subject is... boring, it doesn't lead anywhere.

And another forum discussion is blown to smithereens because of two people can't fit their ego's into a discussion. Having a row seems to be more important than the reason this whole place was meant for. Too bad, and a shame...

Thanks, mommy.

guns are for the fat and lazy. daggers and swords are for the swift and sleek. weapons in all serve but a troubling cause, only one purpose in all, and that is to kill.

The gun is not a tool it is a weapon!!!!! The gun evolved from the cannon which had no use in hunting as the "bow and arrow" (that term sounds so childish for some reason). As a result of making smaller "cannons" we have found new uses for them.

If anyone has not seen "Bowling for Colombine" I recomend that you do, it shows the lack of responsibility that the red-neck, gun-toting madmen feel about the posetion of a gun.

In the words of Chris Rock "If you made bullets $5,ooo each there would be no accidental shootings, if a person has $5o,ooo of bullets in their head you'd want to have the right man."

"The gun evolved from the cannon which had no use in hunting as the "bow and arrow" (that term sounds so childish for some reason). As a result of making smaller "cannons" we have found new uses for them."

I suppose we should stop using cell phones, too. They're evil. After all, if the Nazis hadn't come up with a way to launch rockets on London, we'd never have gotten the comm sats up in space.

I'm in favor of gun ownership. I've seen Bowling for Columbine. And except for one particularly objectionable story he showed in a highly selective light (the young boy who took a gun to school and shot someone), I found little I could disagree with.

I do not believe that you got the same message out of that movie that he was attempting to convey. Moore clearly did NOT blame guns and high gun ownership. He argued exactly the opposite, with Canada as the example which proved his point (high gun ownership, low violent crime).

Moore placed the blame primarily at the feet of a sensationalist media and a government agenda to keep America scared. Scared animals are stupid, violent animals, and that certainly describes Bush's support base. Without these fears the US still wouldn't be as safe as our gun-loving neighbors to the north, but it'd be a whole lot closer. Liberalized concealed-carry laws would do the job even better.

I find this discussion highly fascinating. I guess it depends on your point of view. I have owned rifles, shotguns and pistols and am strongly in favour of the right of the ordinary citizen to bear arms. I know this may sound a little strange coming from someone who has survived a gunshot wound to the face. I also have been robbed at gunpoint when working as a cashier and if I didn't have customers in the store I would have defended myself against the robber instead of handing over the money.
I know that there are those out there who will always blame the tool rather than the person wielding it, but as one posting stated,"Guns don't kill, people do." I think that if everyone other than convicted felons carried there would actually be less crime.People may want to research this by checking out the crime stats for Kennesaw, Georgia USA, where every household is required by town ordinance to keep a firearm on the premises,unless said person is a convicted felon. Crime rate there dropped dramatically. Also it doesn't seem to matter as far as gun laws go because criminals will always find a way to procure firearms. All gun laws do is remove the guns from people who should be able to carry or own said firearms and if they refuse to give them up makes them criminals which definitely removes the equalization factor. Do you think there would be a USA if these rights had been infringed upon during colonial times. Also look at pre WWII Germany when Hitler only allowed a select segment of the population to own or carry firearms. I bet if the Jews, Gypsys and other so called inferior races had firearms Hitler and his thugs would not have remained in power for as long as they did.
So much for the history lessons, I look forward to some interesting responses to this post.

If I lived in the mountains where wild cats or bears could kill me, guns are good. If I live in a civilised society, they are bad.

KB