h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Math -

Genocide - This is the complete distruction of a race or culture. We still have egyptians today, correct? Excuse me for not seeing this as genocide... because if God was out to kill all the Egyptians, they'd all be dead.

Oh, and I did find a nice quote that may sum up the dealings you've had with wacko Christians:

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger."

<(((><

Myst

Interesting analogy, blickybadger, but as far as I can see it has *nothing* at all to do with the case for God!

god... fact or fiction
true of false
black or white...
its not as simple as that there are so meny shades of gray

Welcome! Thanks for coming out...

*points to post 11360*
been here for a while

Matholwch, We are going round in ruddy great circles, and the issue as I now see it, is that you don't *want* to accept *anything* I say as having any validity. You are threatened by the idea that something I say just *might* be right!
>>See you by Sulphur Outfall No4 .<<
Where you will enjoy playing the brave hero - somewhat like Milton's Satan, who would rather rule in Hell than serve in Heaven!
You ignored my description of what hell is far more likely to be like... Cold, grey and dismal, full of backstabbing, paranoiac, suspicious people who want to get one over on everyone else - basically, because Hell contains mostly, people who no matter how they disguise it, even from themselves, want to be all important. Please don't ignore this description again - answer me, does *that* sound so wonderful?

>>The churches sit full to the doors on Sundays, empty for the rest of the week religion for the majority is a one a week thing and yet it dominates the life of so many but the scriptures are beheld as a truth in the harts of a few. <<
Anthea, this is not true of all churches, or of all believers...

i said the majoraty...
not all...

maybe i should have used another word...
but this is true in my experience

Hi Noggin. I'm not at all sure about your reservations concerning the effect of meaning on a logical contradiction. Surely 'Blosh kregs and Blosh doesn't kreg' has to be a formal contradiction whatever the meaning of the terms, unless we are to suppose a variant syntax in addition to the semantics. If this is correct, we can show that someone's belief is false without even knowing what it means! In view of some of the opinions on this board, that is perhaps rather convenient.

No Myst, that doesn't follow. Kill off all the Egyptians and lots of other folks move in to this desirable bit of unoccupied territory. Subsequent generations will be 'Egyptians', even though not descendants of the original population.

Plus not having committed actual genocide, but merely caused the death of several thousand, isn't really a redeeming feature
Anthea.
I think that it is possible that the truly-happy-with-god people are those who have developed, a personal belief system. People who believe they have a one to one relationship with one deity or another, that is not encumbered by religious intolerance or historical reference.

Hi Jez .

You know as well as I do that if you get more than four pagans in a room you:
a) must be in a pub,
b) you're in for a "my dad's bigger than my dad" pissing contest,
c) or a session of 'saccharine solidarity'.

And my gods are your gods old girl, unless Baldur and Tyr have changed shirts mid-game.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Hi Myst ,

My accusation of your God being a 'Genocidal Maniac' refers to his overall history rather than specific incidents such as massacring thousands of children.

Good quote by the way, and it applies to all faiths...

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Hi Della .

We do, don't we (go around in circles that is).

I think that you would be amazed at how much validity I do give your words, which is why I always try to answer you my dear. I find many of your attitudes to your faith refreshing and desperately wish that many of your fellow-christians could see the world through your eyes.

All that being said, it doesn't mean I have to agree with you on many areas of theology. Take Hell for instance. You seem to miss my main point, again. It is not the nature of Hell I am getting at, but the nature of a God that:
a) needs one in the first place,
b) has selection criteria that will damn the innocent and virtuous,
c) and yet reward the guilty and hypocritical if they will but bend their knee to him.

I know that not all these points are included in your special brand of christianity, but they are by the vast majority of your kin and are thus christian consensus reality.

You are right about one thing. I do paint myself and others here as the Sulphur Outfall No4 Heroic Martyrdom Brigade. This is a running joke that began, as you will recall, back in the days of JtP as an attempt to highlight the ridiculous nature of his claims. You will also recall that you were part of that brigade in his eyes.

I am no hero. I am just a man who would try to discern some reason in the universe, some hope, some divine compassion. A compassion I cannot see in christianity nor in its God. If what christians generally believe comes to pass, how can I (or anyone of good conscience) ask to be saved when so many innocents, and people worthier than I, will be damned for no fault of their own? We are a mild resistance, made up of those who question such dogmatic cruelty and the philosophies that support it.

Perhaps someone will one day show me a good reason for it, but as yet many have tried and failed. Perhaps you are that person, so go ahead I am willing to listen.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Della. All but one (the onlological argument) of the suggested proofs of the existence of God are based on inductive inference. That is what Blicky is discussing. Therefore it is very much to the point.

Hi Myst,

I like the <(((>< although it may not display as well in all styles.


>> "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger." <<

That's witty but what 'does' make you a Christian?

F

Fathom -

What makes you a christian? Believing that God sent His Son to die for our sins, and that you are forgiven because of that. That's all there is.

So Christians who reject the notion that punishment of the innocent is acceptable as atonement for the sins of the guilty are in fact not Christians at all?

If that's all there is what is all of Jesus' teachings about?

On the other hand that definition fits nicely with Math's definition of God - a petty, homicidal, malevolent dictator with a penchant for torturing His enemies. You could fit that description and still be a Christian. As of course could Satan.

Is there not some additional obligation to conduct your life on Earth with some respect for your fellow beings?

F

>>So Christians who reject the notion that punishment of the innocent is acceptable as atonement for the sins of the guilty are in fact not Christians at all?<<

Like I said, a Christian is anyone who accepts the salvation that God's Son, Jesus, gave for us all.

>>If that's all there is what is all of Jesus' teachings about?<<

Jesus's teachings are how God wants us to live, daily. They are how He would have us do things. Salvation is one matter, a necessity for us to live on after death. His teachings are for the day to day.

>>On the other hand that definition fits nicely with Math's definition of God - a petty, homicidal, malevolent dictator with a penchant for torturing His enemies. You could fit that description and still be a Christian. As of course could Satan.<<

Right. Let me explain this again, because I don't think anyone is connecting two and two. We'll use an example.

We have a petty, homicidal, malevolent dictator with a penchant for torturing His enemies. We have a creation of sapient beings, which he creates. He is petty, so he becomes upset with the first infration of hundreds of minor rules and laws which he set up in order to frustrate his creations. At this infraction, he kills off his creations, sending them to his version of hell, lets the rest rebuild, and does it all over again, laughing all the while.

Look at the God that I worship. He creates man (and woman ,) and gives them an earthly paradise. Man (and woman,) break the one and only rule, and they earn the punishment, which is death and damnation.
However, God loves them enough to promise them unconditional forgiveness, and gives His only Son as a sacrifice for them (us,) so that we will not have to suffer damnation. If you look at Paul's letters to Timothy, you'll understand the full width of that forgiveness, that God forgave a blasphemer, killer, and altogether horrible man, (As Paul would say, "Chief of Sinners,") and changed him into the righteous person that he was.

If we would live as God would have us, as moral and kind people, caring for our elders, the poor and weak, the widowed and needy, then I think life would be a lot better.

Can you now see the difference between a "petty, homicidal, malevolent dictator with a penchant for torturing His enemies," and the God I know and adore?

I only hope this imparts some understanding to you, and perhaps it may scatter the straw men that tend to arise in this thread.

<(((><