h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>which is why all my children attend Sunday School.<<
Oh, Matholwch, how would you feel if one or all of them *became Christians*! Would you feel betrayed?
>> of Salvation Theology or Original Sin. I have not ignored your answers, I have challenged them and will continue to do so.<<
As you can see from my discussion with Bod, I am still working out exactly how I see salvation theology, but I am sorry you don't see what I am saying about original sin. You cannot deny that everybody sins, or has done... Not all guilt is pathological, or down to low self esteem, but much is merited. What I am saying is, what Hans Kung argued, that Augustine was misled by the translation he was using, when he developed the original sin doctrine, and so much was made of it later by the famous John Calvin, a.k.a. Jean Chauvin of Geneva!
Regardless of inheritance from Adam and Eve, mythical people designed to tell a story, I believe, (though I know Myst thinks differently), all people *do* things for which they feel sorry or guilty. In other words, all people have a sinful nature.

Eto -

Yes. In fact, I've noticed that whenever I visit this thread, my computer tends to throw up about 24-27 new windows, not popups, spontaniously. But /only on this thread/.

>>No, that is not how most legal systems work today. You do not punish every citizen in a country for the actions of one man, especially if he is a dictator. Unless, of course, you are George W.Bush (Snr or Jnr)... and the dictator is Saddam Hussein Al-Tikriti. Does this make Dubyah the new Moses? I wouldn't be surprised if he thought so.<<

The nation was in sin, Math. They worshiped many gods. Those who didn't were the slaves.

>>A quick question that is not satisfactorily explained by your Bible:
If God was protecting the Jews, why did he let them fall into slavery in the first place?<<

It never said God was protecting them. As I said before, He lets us do our own thing, up to a point.


>>So instead he armed them with the Biblical version of a nuclear weapon - the Ark of the Covenant, and encouraged them to spend the next few decades rampaging around the middle east, slaughtering all before them.<<

I'm not sure how you got the weapon analogy... it doesn't kill people. In fact, people made it. It contained Aaron's rod, God's commandments, and a bit of mana. No mention of uranium or balefire, or wrath or anything.

>>It looks like he eventually tired of his chosen people though, don't it?<<

Again, God leaves us tend for ourselves most of the time.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Hi Della, it wasn't a serious assault, so it probably wasn't important for them.

I was wondering, if you forgot all the rules in the Old Testament, which makes sense to me cause the ones about not mixing fibres and menstruation do seem somewhat daft. What are the rules in the New Testament to follow?

I can think of only one at present, which is 'love my neighbour'. If really was a central tenet of Christianity, then I would happily be a Christian, so long as I could still be a pagan as well!

Are there more rules? Any thoughts?

I would encourage all of you to read Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods."

It makes a point of how people can start to believe in religion, and forget about God. Which is what I sometimes see happening.

>>I can think of only one at present, which is 'love my neighbour'. If really was a central tenet of Christianity, then I would happily be a Christian, so long as I could still be a pagan as well!<<

It's a tenet of most of the Christians I know. Certainly, all the ones that live around me.

Hi Myst, I've read Small Gods, it was brilliant!

Love thy neighbour would be for gay marriage, gay bishops and everything! No division, no arguements necessary and then Christianity would become known as a loving, inclusive religion, whch supports you no matter your lifestyle. Sounds lovely to me!

As for more rules, I'm sure there are. My Bible doesn't have Christ's words in red, so it's a bit hard to find any quickly. But not all the O.T. is bloodshed. Look at proverbs. It's chock full of good advice.

"A poor man's field may produce abundant food,
but injustice sweeps it away."

"Better to be a nobody and have a servant,
then pretend to be somebody and have no food."

"He who works his land will have food,
but he who chases fantasies lacks judgement."

And so on.

I read the bible in bible studies, but that was a while ago now, (I was 16). The proverbs come across as quite zen like!

Hi Eto,

"THe only thhing from the Bible that my parents ever mention is that My dad likes to quote "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render onto God what is God's." He says that it is a requirement for seperation of chruch and statee, only most Christians in history have ignored it."

Of course, to a monotheist, EVERYTHING belongs to God...

"In other words, all people have a sinful nature."

Mother Teresa, asked why she devoted her life to the poor of Calcutta, once replied that she did so because she recognised that she had a Hitler within her...

Hi Kaz,

Re the NT rules, you've hit the nail on the head. Extending your quote, Jesus said

"Do to others as you would have them do to you. This IS the law and the prophets." (emphasis added - older translations have "this represents" or "this sums up", but newer translations from older sources have the more powerful version).

James said "Religion that is pure and blameless in God's sight is this; to look after widows and orphans in their distress and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world".

Paul said "Abstain from fornication and the blood of strangled animals"

Regarding being a Pagan Christian, you might like to read a couple of books by Timothy Frecke and Peter Gandy, "The Jesus Mysteries" and "Jesus and the Goddess".

I think it's fair to say that it's a common view on this thread that Jesus was one of the wisest and most compassionate beings to ever live. As Math says, he "makes a splendid deity".

Bod

Thank you!

That's what I've been trying to get across. If everone would look after the weak and needy.

It all looks good, till you start quoting Paul!!

I don't actually want to be a Pagan Christian, as I am happy with my faith. But I am interested in reading other ideas so thanks Bod!

Myst, it would be nice to concentrate on positive things on this thread for once! And meet half-way, instead of standing behind a line and throwing stones at each other!!

Really. I can't count the number of times I've felt like I've caught a half-brick between the teeth.

"The nation was in sin, Math. They worshiped many gods. Those who didn't were the slaves."

As was most of the world then. Anyway, if you believe a lot of Christians, we're all in sin, and Jesus had to die to save us. Should God punish us all, then?

Anyway, how exactly were they supposed to konw that they were in sin?

YHWH didn't exactly go to the trouble to come down and tell them, accompanied by some miacles to prove his divinity. He just started sending plauges when their leader ignored his mesaanger.

Is it fair to punish people if they have no way of realizing that what they are doing is a crime?

"It never said God was protecting them. As I said before, He lets us do our own thing, up to a point."

Then why did he helpo them get out of slavery? If he didn't want them enslaved, why did he let them be enslaved in the first place?

Weren't you the one who said something about "doing things right the first time"?

"Again, God leaves us tend for ourselves most of the time."

Oh. He just comes in and starts killing people for violating laws he never told them about whenever he gets bored or angry at how things have gone off the path he wanted?

How childlike.

"Of course, to a monotheist, EVERYTHING belongs to God..."

True, but Jesus in that scene says that money is Caesar's. Of course it could be interpreted asa an order to live in poverty or something.

"I think it's fair to say that it's a common view on this thread that Jesus was one of the wisest and most compassionate beings to ever live. As Math says, he "makes a splendid deity"."

That really should be rephraserd as ...ever to have its ideas written down for us.". After all, Jesus and Gotama Sidhartha were lucky enough to lie in cultures where writing existed and where the would be listened to.

Considering that for most of history, such societies have either not existed or made up a very small percentage of humanity, it is likely that equaly compassionate beings have lived on Earth, but we know nothing of their teachings.

Which is why I was trying to be more positive.

Couldn't resist the lure of the post number...

Jez