h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Elfrida

"As fro consciousness being 'all' - I'm arguing for a cosmology that allows for what might be called 'the outside': not just outwith human knowledge or awareness, but so entirely 'other' that we would have no frame of reference to recognise it if we encountered it."

This is what consciousness is, it is so entirely 'other' that you don't have a frame of reference for it yourself and wish to deny it.
It is far beyond human knowledge and awareness.
It is as a mainframe to our pocket calculator - and that's being generous.
Outside of that is nothing.

Elfrida
I didn't suggest that aneathesia was a bad idea for operations. We choose to limit our pain when we can on earth.
we 'choose' our pain and suffering before birth for the experience, equally we can choose to be relieved of it too.
That's where me and 'karma' differ.
but we can't walk about in a state of anaethesia at all times, although alcoholics and drugs addicts do try and it doesn't get them anywhere but deeper into trouble ,pain and suffering

Elfie. I agree. I don't accept that we need the bad in order to appreciate the good. I had cancer which came with no noticable symptoms. OK, it might have become painful later, but it got spotted during another check. Lucky me! Nope, pain and warning don't always coincide when it matters.

If there's a 'no pain' option going, I'll volunteer to be the first to try it. Let's just have a sort of itch instead, so we don't get injured.

Moth
Any set of ideas, however well-meaning, that seeks to explain, justify or excuse the unnecessary suffering of others serves to perpetuate it (imho).
The reason I mentioned anaesthesia is that there was resistance to its introduction from many who believed suffering was somehow the 'destiny' of humankind. Even then for many years it was thought that children didn't feel pain (hence Roald Dahl's recalling of having his tonsils taken out while fully conscious on the kitchen table at home).
I believe that just as we look back to those times and shudder, future generations will see our acceptance of unnecessary or deliberate suffering as similarly barbaric .

toxx...thank goodness the cancer was spotted early! Hope you're fighting fit again Yes...while we're re-ordering the scheme of things, I'll vote for your idea of being alerted to danger or damage by a noticeable (but not unpleasant)

Math has gone off to do Druid stuff for a few days, Raindog seems to have gone missing and Hoovooloo has apparently left the building - gosh I miss those guys!

az

Just an aside to your parable, Moth. I came across a school of thought that suggested Hitler was a messenger sent from God to remind mankind of the suffering that can be inflicted upon itself. That witnessing atrocities of such massive proportions would frighten and apall us to such a degree that we would not do it again.

A theory that is uncoscionable to most.

I like your calculator analogy as well, BTW

Elfrida
"Any set of ideas, however well-meaning, that seeks to explain, justify or excuse the unnecessary suffering of others serves to perpetuate it (imho). "

I'm sure that it doesn't, since I don't perpetuate pain in ohers or self or enjoy it , understanding the reason for pain doesn't make it anymore the pleasant and I'm certainly not in the school of thought that says don't avoid your pain when you can.
I'm not condoning the pain and suffering of others and self in this world, I'm trying to understand it's reason for being.

Since I have know pain and suffering, I feel that I can speak about it as if it were something I know.
Toxx have you tried heroin, I understand it works wonders for any pain, physical or emotion, I believe that like having a nervous system it comes at a cost though

Isn't it strange that the dangers of being addicted to pleasure are ever before us, but the horrors of being wedded to pain are seldom mentioned?

Matthoo
The 'parable' is not meant to enforce the idea of wrathful god who punishes our perception of wicked. nor that pain and suffering is something we can do nothing about but is 'our' fate. It is meant to enforce the idea that we are all the same that there is no wicked soul after death and that we can choose at the initial level of soul what happens or doesn't happen to us. And the place in which we make the choice is a place where we completely UNDERSTAND that it is a virtual reality illusion and we come to no harm if we are killed by our experiences.
I'm getting in here quickly because I can see that this parable is already open to misunderstanding and it hasn't been a thousand years yet.

(I'm beginning to feel like Toxx and his Kalam here......)

There was a time that the pieces fit,
but I watched them fall away.
Mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting
I've done the the math enough to know the dangers of a second guessing
Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.

i like a bit of poetry now and again

Elfrida
Being addicted to anything is harmful, but the pleasure addictions are more easily fallen into.

Moth...I'm not sure about that...I feel as though I was born into a culture that has fallen into a deathly addiction to suffering, considering it 'normal' at best and desirable at worst. While the so-called pleasure-addictions may be visible and readily-condemned, the widespread condition of being 'half in love with easeful death' may be less easy to spot .

hi elf,

Is it that we have 'fallen into a deathly attraction to suffering' or just that all the things we've been told SHOULD make us 'happy' just are not working?

(sorry, really hard to type here, got a 16 pound cat sitting on my lap - total feline version of luuuurve).

Yes, all of us are intrigued with death, though I don't know many people personally who are that keen to get there 'before their time'.

what culture are you talking about? Where do you live?

az

Moth,

I just meant to throw that in as an aside - not an interpretation or criticism of your allegorical tale. I do not share the views about messengers sent to demonstrate 'Man's inhumanity to Man'

Your parable does not enforce "the idea of wrathful god who punishes our perception of wicked. nor that pain and suffering is something we can do nothing about but is 'our' fate."

I fear that my reputation as a Christian preceeds me and has tainted the reading of my postings. Oh, woe is me!!

The Vedic teachings place great emphasis on reincarnation in a form that your behaviour in your previous embodiment deserves. Bad deeds as a human will mean returning as a lower form of animal embodiment. How then would that animal perform good deeds to become a human in the next life?

The ultimate goal is to become "self-realised". If that were to happen we would become the candle in the sun again, forgetting what we really are. Does the process then begin again?

By the way, Thank God for Judas...

I don't know of anyone with an addiction to suffering.
Although in a funny way you are almost.. almost validating my theory that we 'choose' our own pain and suffering

To have a wish for an easful death/life comes to those who cannot cope or endure what is happening to them in my opinion, I think We're not talking about real masochism here are we?
since that is to the masochist a pleasure in pain.

Pleasure addictions are not so easily spotted as you may think, they are insidious and many people would deny their addiction to ; sex, work, shopping, food, alcohol, smoking, adrenalin,

Mattyhoo
Sorry if I jumped the gun, I just wanted it to be made clear I wasn't having anything to do with any kind of 'aids is the wrath of god on homosexuals' stuff, not anything to do with your belief system or personal views.

"The Vedic teachings place great emphasis on reincarnation in a form that your behaviour in your previous embodiment deserves. Bad deeds as a human will mean returning as a lower form of animal embodiment. How then would that animal perform good deeds to become a human in the next life?"

I don't believe this either, it's just another form of the same thing, God or karma punishes.
We were not created to be punished, but to learn through remembering who we really are.
Every single good/ bad experience that happens to us, that we choosen to happen to us, because we exist in a matrix of FREEWILL which means nothing can ever happen to us that we have not willed to happen.
Fate does not give us freewill, but it becomes what we choose.
A suffering child or disabled child is not in my opinion suffering for past ill deeds.
This is how I feel about Karma, it is the Effect not the CAUSE of life events.
We are the cause before we are born. when we are IN god not separated from god.
I don't assume you believe the karmic thing either Mattyhoo I'm just adding that to the thing you said

Mattyhoo
I am certain that Judas has a special place in *heaven*.
because god is forgiveness..and that applies to everyone even those without a baptismal dipping of one kind or another.

Moth. I was given Morphine following a hospital operation. It was wonderfully effective for about an hour. Unfortunately I was only allowed it once every 3 hours. I think they're a bit better organised these days.

Azahar : if it was you, if it wasn't, then whoever it was that said they were a pantheist and had been for years - I'm not entirely sure if I'm a pantheist in the sense that you are - I feel that there is as much God in anything as there is in everything, and vice versa, and in my humble opinion that is not a lot.

Moth - if it was you, or whoever posted to clarify what a pantheist was - that also cleared it up for me, as it was a term I made up in one instant when i was asked to describe my beliefs in the terms of agnosticism, atheism, theism, etc, when I had said I believe in everything more or less equally and that my opinion doesn't really count, and the best I could come up with was pantheism, pan for everything, theism for just general belief.

If Noggin's around here somewhere he could probably give you the term I'm looking for, he's read the thread that I made the point on, which I might paste on if anyone's interested.

AND EVERYONE: if it is you, or whoever you are : has someone been posting adverts for this thread or something along those lines? I turn my back for one day, and when I check back, there's FOUR MORE PAGES OF POSTS! Kindly, everyone slow down posting, or I'll just die of overreadingitis.

Azahar : if it was you, if it wasn't, then whoever it was that said they were a pantheist and had been for years - I'm not entirely sure if I'm a pantheist in the sense that you are - I feel that there is as much God in anything as there is in everything, and vice versa, and in my humble opinion that is not a lot.

Moth - if it was you, or whoever posted to clarify what a pantheist was - that also cleared it up for me, as it was a term I made up in one instant when i was asked to describe my beliefs in the terms of agnosticism, atheism, theism, etc, when I had said I believe in everything more or less equally and that my opinion doesn't really count, and the best I could come up with was pantheism, pan for everything, theism for just general belief.

If Noggin's around here somewhere he could probably give you the term I'm looking for, he's read the thread that I made the point on, which I might paste on if anyone's interested.

AND EVERYONE: if it is you, or whoever you are : has someone been posting adverts for this thread or something along those lines? I turn my back for one day, and when I check back, there's FOUR MORE PAGES OF POSTS! Kindly, everyone slow down posting, or I'll just die of overreadingitis.