h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>Yet this God still intends to make the majority of humanity burn for eternity for the disobedience of a distant ancestor.<<
Where on do you get that from?

Hi Warner,

From the Christian Bible and the teachings of its churches. They tell me that because Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, which ironically was the knowledge of good and evil, sin came into the world and all men after him have been cursed with sin since birth. Sin they can only lose if they are born again through the intercession and acceptance of Jesus.

Some Christians believe that being baptised and then obeying the teachings of (and, of course, their particular church or creed) is enough. The more extreme believe you cannot choose to do this, nor earn it through good deeds or piety, but must be selected by God.

Anyone who does not accept Jesus (or is selected) will burn in the lake of eternal fire.

We've had this explained to us ad infinitum, ad nauseum here in this mammoth thread quite a number of times by participating Christians over the years. It is also what I have seen taught from the pulpits of a number of churches, from catholic to anglican, and from baptist to penetecostal.

The books of Genesis and Revelation can also be quite revealing.

Matholwch .

Matholwch
Ah, I see. Although I don't agree with the apparent literal message of these "common churches" that you describe, I don't deny the impression that might come across.

The main difference between my understanding and theirs is that we have to accept GOD, and not Jesus. Of course, if you state that Jesus is God, then I suppose it has a similar meaning.
I don't see how Jesus, a human being living his life on could be omniscient or omnipotent. Could or did Jesus lift a massive rock with his bare hands. Did he have past, present and future in his mind all at the same time when he was communicating with others etc.

The nature of my faith is unitarian, and God is not a human being although he created us; I suppose you could say we're all sons of God in that way.

But back to the crux of the matter, the burning in hell. The best way I can describe this is that every action we take in this life has a consequence, and hell is the extension of those consequences that the soul experiences after death.
So, if one takes God as their Lord and Master, they should abide by His laws etc. to the best of their ability. If one decides to "rebel" against their Lord, then they will follow their desires, which might well lead them astray and into trouble and torment.

Let's take the analogy of father/son relationship. If our father tells us "do this, don't do that", when we're immature and we respect and listen to him, we will reap the benefits. If we disrespect and disobey, can we blame our father, or ourselves?

Hi Warner,

"Although I don't agree with the apparent literal message of these "common churches" that you describe, I don't deny the impression that might come across."

Common Churches? That's a new definition to me. Does this mean you are a member of an 'uncommon church' and if so which?

"I don't see how Jesus, a human being living his life on could be omniscient or omnipotent. Could or did Jesus lift a massive rock with his bare hands. Did he have past, present and future in his mind all at the same time when he was communicating with others etc."

Maybe the man Jesus didn't go around lifting rocks but he is reputed to have brought the dead back to life and performed many acts of magical healing. He also revealed that he knew his own future prior to his betrayal and subsequent execution.

"The nature of my faith is unitarian, and God is not a human being although he created us; I suppose you could say we're all sons of God in that way."

You can say that perhaps, but there are those here who know other gods and a fair number of atheists as well.

"But back to the crux of the matter, the burning in hell. The best way I can describe this is that every action we take in this life has a consequence, and hell is the extension of those consequences that the soul experiences after death."

Ah the it's all your own fault argument huh? It doesn't wash Warner me old mate. Especially as there are billions of humans who will be condemned to the lake of fire who never even knew of your god and thus had opportunity to repent. Many of these are innocents and others who have committed no crime but to fail to to meet the requirements of the first commandment.

"So, if one takes God as their Lord and Master, they should abide by His laws etc. to the best of their ability. If one decides to "rebel" against their Lord, then they will follow their desires, which might well lead them astray and into trouble and torment."

I see it's a choice between slavish devotion and obedience or free will huh? It's obvious that your god is not very happy with anyone actually using their free will.

"Let's take the analogy of father/son relationship. If our father tells us "do this, don't do that", when we're immature and we respect and listen to him, we will reap the benefits. If we disrespect and disobey, can we blame our father, or ourselves?"

It all depends if what our father tells us makes any sense whatsoever. Perhaps you should have a good read of all 613 commandments and come back and tell me just how many you obey?

Matholwch the Apostate

Matholwch,
>>Does this mean you are a member of an 'uncommon church' and if so which?<<
By common church I mean ones with a catholic root common in UK. My "Home page" has some strong clues about me.

>>Maybe the man Jesus didn't go around lifting rocks but he is reputed to have brought the dead back to life and performed many acts of magical healing. He also revealed that he knew his own future prior to his betrayal and subsequent execution.<<
That's fine, and it's quite plausible to me, that Almighty God was helping him.

>>there are billions of humans who will be condemned to the lake of fire who never even knew of your god<<
No! Almighty God is the fairest of all judges, and if there is no knowledge of His existence in someone's heart, then there is no blame upon them. I think you'll find, particularly in this day and age, that the vast majority of mankind have heard of BigG. Ignorance is also not a defence in law. It is our duty, to an extent, to find out.

>>it's obvious that your god is not very happy with anyone actually using their free will.<<
If we use our free-will to disobey what we know is right, the consequences are dire, yes. They are of our own making. Whether they come in the form of earthly fire or mental anguish or physical pain, they are dire. Using our intelligence in a positive way in conjunction with righteousness, is strongly encouraged. Education, education and education.

>>It all depends if what our father tells us makes any sense whatsoever.<<
Mmm, fair comment, but still we should respect those who are older than us.
It's very likely that they may possess wisdom that we do not

Hi Warner ,

"By common church I mean ones with a catholic root common in UK. My "Home page" has some strong clues about me."

Your home page is pretty confusing actually unless you are Ba'hai (?).

"That's fine, and it's quite plausible to me, that Almighty God was helping him."

And that all depends if you see Jesus as just another Hebrew prophet or as one of the Trinity?

"No! Almighty God is the fairest of all judges, and if there is no knowledge of His existence in someone's heart, then there is no blame upon them."

His published works would seem to contradict that wouldn't they.

"I think you'll find, particularly in this day and age, that the vast majority of mankind have heard of BigG."

Er...no. Perhaps you should go to India and China and ask around.

"Ignorance is also not a defence in law. It is our duty, to an extent, to find out."

Duty to find out about something we have no inkling about? Eternity in the lake of fire because we didn't know and no-one told us? Some justice...

"If we use our free-will to disobey what we know is right, the consequences are dire, yes."

What if your only 'crime' is to disobey the first commandment because you did not know the Abrahamic God exists?

"They are of our own making. Whether they come in the form of earthly fire or mental anguish or physical pain, they are dire. Using our intelligence in a positive way in conjunction with righteousness, is strongly encouraged. Education, education and education."

Unless you are female of course. The Bible makes it plain, in the letters of Paul, that you should not educate women (or allow them to teach).

"Mmm, fair comment, but still we should respect those who are older than us."

In my lifetime that would have included Pol Pot, several American Presidents, Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung.

Age is no guarantee of wisdom - and I'm proof of that.

Matholwch.

No, I'm not Ba'hai.
>>What if your only 'crime' is to disobey the first commandment because you did not know the Abrahamic God exists?<<
I've already told you, and you said:
>>His published works would seem to contradict that wouldn't they.<<
Could you expand on that, please? Are you suggesting the OT, NT, Psalms or Qur'an contradict the notion of no blame?

Hi Warner ,

According to the OT this God of yours once executed every living thing on the earth except a handful of followers and animals. I'd say he has form on the unfairness charge.

Indeed if you go to the link below you can get a fiar idea of this genicidal deity's injustice:
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html

Matholwch,
>>I'd say he has form on the unfairness charge.<<
And I suppose that you are qualified to judge that, are you?
Are you also omniscient like Almighty God?

If we're not qualified to judge that he's unfair, then we can't be qualified to judge that he's fair, either.

Noggin

Hi Noggin
I don't agree with that. Why?
Let's "hypothetically" say that the God of Abraham exists.

You might say that He could be wishing mankind to destroy themselves or such like. Liken Him to an evil alien or tyrant. Well, my mind tells me this must be bunkum, because all the evidence in the Scriptures and God's representatives on earth, say otherwise. Also, my own experiences from belief, have a positive effect on me and others around me, so enrich my life and understanding.
ie. The meaning and purpose of the universe begin to make sense.
A god who is omniscient is obviously out of our league, and we CAN'T come to a conclusion that He could be unfair; He is Holy.

Now, what if God didn't exist. We start to make theories that all matter and energy and intelligence have no source, and nothing is responsible for their order and balance except randomness.
I find that a lot more incredulous and VERY difficult to accept. As a mathemetician, I know that when I make experiments with randomness, we don't obtain any intelligent pattern, just randomness. I couldn't understand what randomness even was if my thoughts were random.
In the case that someone accepts everything comes from randomness, it's no longer relevant whether God is fair or not, because He doesn't exist.

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Which misses the point entirely. If the above is true then we can't exercise any judgement about Him at all.

<>

This assumes that the Laws of Physics are random.

Noggin

Noggin
>>then we can't exercise any judgement about Him at all.<<
Oh, but we can, because we have free-will to decide whether we accept His judgement or not. The consequences of non-respect and deeming God as not Holy, leads to rebellion and disbelief.

Hi Warner

"Well, my mind tells me this must be bunkum, because all the evidence in the Scriptures and God's representatives on earth, say otherwise."

The easy answer to that statement is 'well they would say that wouldn't they?'. It is no evidence at all as every religion on earth states the same thing.

"Also, my own experiences from belief, have a positive effect on me and others around me, so enrich my life and understanding."

This is also no evidence as I get the same from the pagan community.

"A god who is omniscient is obviously out of our league, and we CAN'T come to a conclusion that He could be unfair; He is Holy."

An omniescent, omnipresent and omnipotent God cannot be anything but unfair as, by the definition of those terms:
1. nothing that happens in the past, present and future is unknown to him,
2. he is everywhere, at all times and places, and
3. nothing can happen without his will.

The fact that I and others do come to the conclusion that he is unfair and unjust flies in the face of the triple-O hypothesis.

"Now, what if God didn't exist. We start to make theories that all matter and energy and intelligence have no source, and nothing is responsible for their order and balance except randomness."

Welcome to Chaos Theory my friend :D. Only a god that claims to be the single creator of all, whose directed works of evidence, the scriptures, are so easily disprovable falls fouls of reality.

"I find that a lot more incredulous and VERY difficult to accept. As a mathemetician, I know that when I make experiments with randomness, we don't obtain any intelligent pattern, just randomness."

Your inability, as a mathematician no less, to understand Chaos Theory is your failing, not a proof of an all-emcompassing creator.

"In the case that someone accepts everything comes from randomness, it's no longer relevant whether God is fair or not, because He doesn't exist."

That doesn't follow by any measure of logic. Where a deity claims to be triple-O then there are problems because the evidence of the the physical universe actually contradicts much of what he expects you to believe about him.

Matholwch .

If Almighty God hadn't endowed us with intelligence, we wouldn't be able to evaluate any "laws of physics" at all, particularly in written form, and we would be like the other creatures on

In fact, our intelligence can be used in both good and bad ways. Used in a good way, mankind advances his knowledge and civilisation.
Sadly, the reverse is also true.

Tempting, so tempting...

F

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You mean we are able to judge for ourselves whether His judgement is correct or not?

Noggin

>>You mean we are able to judge for ourselves whether His judgement is correct or not?<<
I mean you can make a judgement whether you think that Almighty God exists or not, and if He does, whether He is Holy and whether you believe that there is any truth at all in the Scriptures and whether He sent us Apostles ..

Hi Warner,

"If Almighty God hadn't endowed us with intelligence, we wouldn't be able to evaluate any "laws of physics" at all, particularly in written form, and we would be like the other creatures on earth."

You can't make an argument like that based upon an unprovable assumption/belief. As a theist myself I could put a similar counter argument based upon my own experiences and beliefs, but I don't because I cannot prove a thing.

Fathom here and good many other of my atheist friends will have you for breakfast.

Our understanding of physics is based upon solid mathematics and repeatable experimental work.

Your understanding of the Abrahamic God is based mostly on the scribblings of hebrew and greek scribes, translated, mistranslated and filtered through a series of political Roman conferences, and again by both Catholic and less reputable German and English Protestants.

"In fact, our intelligence can be used in both good and bad ways. Used in a good way, mankind advances his knowledge and civilisation. Sadly, the reverse is also true."

That really depends if you think what we presently call 'civilisation' is ,in fact, any advance at all. From the point of view of a deep green every step forwards by humanity is really a step towards our assured destruction.

Ho hum,
Matholwch .