h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

You make a fair point, HS. I would say that Christians ought to attribute human nature to God, both the good and the bad tendencies. The latter have to be there because of freewill. We differ from God in that we don't freely do what is right all the time. I suspect that 'Satan' is a bit of an excuse, back to Garden of Eden times.

From the above, you will see that I don't accept your apparent assumption of symmetry between God and Satan. Even traditionally, the latter is a fallen angel of God.

toxx

HS. I've just realised that I've made a connection between 'the fall' of the human race and the 'fallen angel'. What I have said seems to be present in mythical form in the Bible.

toxx

Hi Toxx, I would agree that in philosophy you need language to describe thoughts, however, as you correctly state, this is not about thoughts. Its more of a feeling, a state of being. Enough people experience this kind of thing, you hear it all the time when people attempt to put words to the feeling such as , they’ve seen the light or God came to them. For me its much more simple, it’s the true state of human kind. I don’t see it as mystical although I can understand why others would.

What I mean by not being the thinker, isn’t that our thoughts are independent of us, rather that we identify with our thoughts and believe that these are what defines us. However if we stop making all that incessant mental noise, we can reach a place of amazing inner stillness and a realisation that our thoughts are superficial in relation to what the mind can achieve.
Now I sound ever so slightly nuts , so I’m not going to mention it again !
Mox

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Because it's the one we live and die in?

The rest is pretty much just theory and ideas and concepts which cannot be proved.


az

hey toxx, i didnt say that anyones life would be meaningless, it was the concept of Gods love would be meanngless if it was as you describe. ie you talk about God 'wanting' things (of us) but the state of 'wanting' needs time i which to operate, you wnat somethin at a point in time, later you find your wants have been met, all this means change. change needs time. Timeless means changeless. what im saying is that the idea of a timeless (changeless) God is inconsistent with the sort of God you describe, who wants, forgives etc.

Jez:

>Before you come back and say that mankind are meant to be companions...

I wouldn't.

>Once you bring in an omnipotent being, then creation could have been seconds ago.

Yet another reason for me to object to omnipotence, unless of course you mean seconds on a cosmic scale.

>a triple O god

That would be omnipotent, omniscient, and what?

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The "ginormous assumption" is that the system of relations that constitutes causality is the *same* system of relations that constitutes spacetime - ie that spacetime is mediated by causal relations. If this is not so then one must ask - What *does* mediate the system of spacetime relations? And what mediates the relation between spacetime relations and causal relations?

Your statement that God doesn't have a spatial location and can act anywhere at will is a much bigger assumption than mine, and begs the same questions of the logical structure of the system as the alternative to my assumption.

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Because there can only be one knowable system of relations - and this is what we call the material world.

Noggin

"From the above, you will see that I don't accept your apparent assumption of symmetry between God and Satan. Even traditionally, the latter is a fallen angel of God."

and now we enter the mythology of the bible, which is more complex than people think.

(1) what are the Nephilim and what were 'the sons of god' in relation to Nephilim? Are the 'sons of god' angels? If so, were they fallen angels or another sort who indulged in fleshy pleasures? Gen 6:4

(2) what are the 'powers and dominions' Paul refers to in Rom 8:38. Are these fallen angels or something else?

In terms of the choices made under freewill, why does the supernatural nature of these creatures mean more than the influence of the non-supernatural? In other words, is there any importance whatsoever to be attached to 'Satan' in terms of the way the world is, evil or the nature of men? If there is, why does god permit it? cf Rev 20 1-3.

Glubb.

A fair point also, but Biblically God wants and forgives timelessly. We are already forgiven before we ask it. God wants what He wants of us at the time of creation and, for Him, changelessly. For us who are time, it seems as though whenever we look, we find Him offering what He offers.

toxx

toxx, already forgiven before we ask it and before we do whatever it is also? this is a sense of the word that we dont have. (hitchhiker quote looming, 'a meaning of the word 'safe' i havent encountered before') thes words (want, forgive, words relating to emotions, action, feelings) which make sense in a world of time make no sense fi you try to appl y them to a timeless Being, is what im trying to say.

Hi HS, Toxx
We can enter the Bible if you like, HS. But I think someone relying on the particular cosmological argument presented earlier would probably reject any equivalence between God and Satan (or indeed anyone else) purely on those grounds, without any need to resort to Scripture.
I don't think difficulties in Scripture interpretation affect the cosmological argument.

"thes words (want, forgive, words relating to emotions, action, feelings) which make sense in a world of time make no sense fi you try to appl y them to a timeless Being, is what im trying to say."


Glubb

I couldn't resist this, which came from the same poem I quoted earlier (folks, I promise to stop quoting poetry after this!)

Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.

"We can enter the Bible if you like, HS."

Just trying to distract toxx from cosmology, Andrew! I know the standard answers to the questions I raise. I studied Bible theology and history for nearly 20 years, so get bored by the usual stuff.

You're right HS!
Actually, I much prefer the poems!

Me too. They're easier to read than these nice long posts.

"Me too. They're easier to read than these nice long posts"

did you know you liked T S Eliot, then?

if you want the whole thing you'll find it at:
http://www.allspirit.co.uk/norton.html

It's one of four poems (The Four Quartets) in which he explores themes of time, using the elements and the seasons. Being Eliot, it's all Christian, but I still love it. I've never come across another poet who tries to do the same thing, and, if I did, I think I would be disappointed after Eliot's apparently effortless grace.

Burnt Norton uses air and high summer to look at time suspended in the present moment of eternal stillness.
East Coker is earth in autumn; time telescoped into a circle.
The Dry Salvages is water in spring; time stretched.
Little gidding is fire in winter; eternity and meaning beyond time.

hey heathen, the poems great, but doesn't answer the question of whether being forgiven for someting you havent even thought of doing yet, can make any sense (has any meaning)! if God has no option (toxx's words) but to forgive everybody everythign, the n the word in this context means nothing.

"if God has no option (toxx's words) but to forgive everybody everythign, the n the word in this context means nothing."

I have the feeling Dante addressed this theological point in the Inferno, though, strictly, he was upbraiding the church of his time for issuing pardons ahead of the crime.

issuing pardons ahead of the crime.

that would be perfectly alright, if forgiveness is inevitable and guaranteed and you had it befor e you were born because it was part of Gods timeless qualities.

no, i still think the whole concept cant make sense timelessly.

Ah, but what you forget, Noggin, is that I accept both material and personal causation. Material causation is fine for spacetime, but God's kind of causation is personal and transcends the domain of science: space and time.



Same answer, I'm afraid. Material and personal relations.

toxx