h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I am of the opinion that men and women aren't quite so different as some would make out - we are, after all, all members of the same species. However, we are living in a society that leads us to believe that men and women are so unalike as to be 'from different planets', which I believe just adds to the problem. Instead of all simply trying to communicate with each other as individuals, we end up trying to compensate for perceived gender differences and looking for subtexts. People often don't even try to communicate honestly as they are too worried about what someone else will read into it.

As for women not saying what we mean, I personally feel that if I said what I really mean to certain other people they would take it the wrong way, and in attempting a more subtle approach, I'm often left frustrated that the 'message' isn't being picked up on. Communication is, IMHO, just a very difficult thing, and will probably remain so until we figure out the whole telepathy thing!

"People often don't even try to communicate honestly as they are too worried about what
someone else will read into it."

I agree totally. Like, you could start a perfectly innocent conversation about understanding people of the opposite sex, and people read stuff into it like "men and women are from different species"...

no offence.

Argh!! I wasn't suggesting that men and women are from different species - in fact, totally the opposite. I was trying to make a comment that society has this kind of perception that allows books like 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' to not only be published but sell well..... IMHO, views like that are helping to cause the communication problems, not help them!!

I agree with Calypte - a lot of it is socialisation, and girls and guys aren't really that different if left to themselves, just brought up to have different experiences of life. ie girls encouraged to try and look pretty, boys encouraged to play rugby will soon feed the stereotype of boys being tougher than girls.

I know several girls who feel trapped because they are expected to react in certain ways, wear daft feminine clothes etc. and they don't want to. Everyday life for them becomes a battle against stereotypes, which seem to be re-inforced in every single day.

If men and women were so different, and such complete extremes, then how can homosexuality exist? I'm wisely going to avoid talking about it much, but I think it shows that there cannot be that much difference between men & women if men can fall in love with men and women can fall in love with women.

At the end of the day, we are all human and we all have a human spirit. Having a male or female body in my view makes as much difference as having a fat or thin body, or a blue eyed or brown eyed body.

At the end of the day, a body is a body, it's just people react to them differently, and it is the reactions, not the bodies, that cause people to act different at later dates. All socialisation.

I still say we are VERY different. The ways we communicate, and the ways we process information, are completely different approaches.

Communication - men: We say what we mean, and no more. We feel perfectly safe in being brutally honest and unsubtle. We also feel comfortable making jokes by saying things that we don't really mean, and we expect others to understand that it was just a jest by our tone and mannerisms.

women: Very sensitive to their own feelings and the feelings of others. This means they are less likely to be offensive, but also means they are going to be less forthright. It also means they look for hidden meanings, and in conversations with a male who is just jawing for amusement, this combination leads to misunderstanding and trouble.

Processing information - men: We try to be the logical ones, weighing good vs bad with every decision, benefits vs drawbacks, etc. We try to leave emotion out as much as possible, because emotions cloud thought and make things difficult. Also, it is socially acceptable for a woman to go into hysterics in an emergency situation, but a male is expected to be a problem solver, and hysterics are not a part of that.

Women: More emotive thinkers than logical at times. Where a man's first question to himself when confronted with a new situation will be "What do I think?" the woman might be more inclined to ask "How do I feel?" This is why women make poor shoppers... if the salesman can make them feel good about the purchase, they forget to seem reluctant in order to get a good bargain. It's also why men appear to women to be emotionally distant. It could be said that many men are insensitive, and many women are hypersensitive, and a balance must be struck between the two.

Of course, these are generalities, and I'm sure that everyone knows exceptions to the rule for each sex. But if you feel you must hurl invectives at me for perpetuating such stereotypes, I await you with a helmet and a smile.

I'll agree with you that these stereotypes are often true as sweeping generalisations of the two sexes. However, my point is that these differences have very little to do with being male or female per se, but because of the way we are conditioned from birth to believe that we, as one gender or the other, should be acting: little boys are discouraged from showing emotions, little girls are taught to 'be nice', etc, etc. The generalised traits you mention are not really inherent to either sex, and this is why you get so many 'exceptions', particularly as society becomes less demanding that we fit into the gender roles once defined as 'normal'.

The trouble is because we all live in a fairly similar environment, people assume that the way men & women act now in the western world is THE way that men and women act. That, frankly, is nonsense.
To understand men & women and any differences between them, you must look at all civilisations & tribes that have existed, both now and in the past.
Engels and many others studied past civilisations, and concluded that there women had the more dominant role, the more aggressive and the ones who owned more property (Being a Marxist, Engels was more interested in property distribution). But the point is, if there were differences between men & women inherant, they would show up in every civilisation ever - the modern world is only one example. The fact that in different societies women act differently and have different parts to play prove that all differences between men & women must be due to socialisation.

Boys and girls are brought up differently, despite the best efforts of people to ensure that they aren't. I cannot see how this can be changed, as it would require a unanimous, simultaneous decision from all parents to bring up children the same no matter what sex they are.

For instance, my wife would let my sons play with the dolls she had as a child (she has no brothers or male cousins, and we have no duaghters), but I was always uneasy about this, as I was waiting for the day they came home from school in floods of tears because they had been given a hard time from their peers as a result. It turns out that I needn't have worried, as some innate form of self-preservation kept them from letting the information out. However, does anyone doubt that they would have been ridiculed by all the other boys if they had? It makes no difference that Action Man and Barbie are essentially the same toy.

The best I can do is to be completely intolerant of any 'girls are stupid/inferior'-type opinions that I hear expressed and to explain to them their error. I won't let them be disrespectful to their mother under any circumstances, and _especially_ not if it's because she's done something 'girly'. And that, I think, is all anyone can do in our society, in the hope that someday, enough boys have been brought up like this for it to be the majority view.

Colonel Sellers...duck

Men and women do not inherently act in such differant ways as you implied. It depends on how they were brought up. If what you said is true why is it that gay men (not all) act more femine then many women I know and on the same foot, gay women (not all) act more like men then many men I know.

I grew up in a house were I was the only girl, I do not act very femine. I am hate wearing dresses or skirts, don't wear make-up. I love camping and climbing trees is one of my favorite hobbies. As for the sensitive and emotional thinking...don't even get me started. I hate weepy women or overly sensitive ones. I say whats on my mind if it offends I'm sorry but it my opinion. I am not going to bite my tongue around people.

Sorry about that but...it's all my opinion.

Good question. Why do some gay men act more effeminate than women?
Why do some gay women act and dress as men?

I have a theory.

There is such a strong traditional, cultural or even possibly genetic force that pairs the male and female, the masculine and feminine, the ying and yang, that even homosexual couples seem to fall into the same pattern. Describe it as you will, butch and femme, whatever, if you look any almost any couple (whether same sex or not), one will be displaying the masculine qualities and one will be displaying the feminine qualities.
In the case of heterosexual couples, this naturally happens, but in the case of homosexual couples, the divide is not always so clear, so one or other of them will act or dress in a fashion typical of the other sex.
In lesbian couples, one of them will tend to have cropped hair, wear trousers and sometimes even wear clothing that serves to hide their bust.
Male homosexuals also seem to fall into the butch/femme categories, with one of them behaving more like a woman would (although in most societies they are unlikely to wear women's clothing).
Then again, look at Boy George!

So what you propose is, essentially, "opposites attract." I would have to say that, while that happens to some degree, it is also not entirely true. I, for instance, could be considered in some ways to be a stereotypical Alpha male, since I am by and large independent, outspoken, intelligent, and strong-willed. My opposite would be the clingy, needy female, and while I certainly seem to attract that sort, it is not the sort that I am attracted to in turn. I tend to find women who can challenge me to be the most fascinating, and there are no challenges from a weak-willed woman. The same pigheadedness I exhibit is the same kind I am attracted to, but it must be acccompanied by a strong mind as well. Oh yeah, and large breasts, too.

No, I'm not saying opposites attract.
The main thrust of my rambling (if there was one), is that even gay couples seem to model themselves (to a lesser or greater extent) on the traditional male/female roles, so that one will assume a more male type of role and one will assume a more female type of role. This often extends to mannerisms and dress code.

Why?
Is it some subconscious desire to fit in with the deeply-engrained cultural standard or is it that the old chromosomes have either a male or female predominance which not only defines what sort of person they will become (gay or not) but also what sort of person they will be attracted to.

(I realise that last paragraph does mean "opposites attract", but I am not venturing that as my opinion, merely wondering if that is the root cause).

I think the 80's showed us that there is some folly in abandoning the traditional roles of the sexes. That was when women began to insist that men become more sensitive, and investigate their feelings, and get in touch with their "feminine side." If I had a feminine side, I'd be at home touching it all day.

So men became sensitive. They became caring nurturers. And women got disgusted, and said, "Be a man!!" The women started fooling around with their personal trainers, and their weepy husbands sat at home and consoled themselves with entire quarts of Haggen-Dazs. Then they had to go out into the woods, strip naked, and beat drums around a campfire to figure out how to be men again. I'm male in every since of the word not because I fear social rejection, but because I don't want to sit in front of a campfire with a rock poking me in my bare ass.