h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Howdy, all.

*Gets black .*

BG - Concur.

Kat, looks great. Good luck with hearding the cats

Courtesy

FG is horrible with anagrams too - I can't wait until she gets back (next week?).


Kerr, I'm so sorry to hear about that. It sounds like a horrible thing to say, but thankfully it wasn't suicide, which is where my mind was heading before you cleared that up. There was obviously nothing to be done in that situation and at least he had someone like you that went and checked in on him.

Kat! You've got one of the (very very few) images I did on that page - I wish I could have a re-do on it as I think I could make it look much smoother (the guy that is) nowadays.

And Lil - that cake looked even better after it was baked

[Yam]

I'm having trouble with the anagrams, too -- maybe we should show a little mercy and sign posts with our usual names while we're wearing masks.

Fellow salonistas, every now and then we share reports we hear from other threads of how the atelier is perceived by lurkers and non-salonistas. The most recent observation is that the salon is a bit of a carpet-slippers-and-comfy-chair club, that occasionally has interesting discussions but which, most of the time, is rather ingrown, full of conversation between people who've known each other a long time.

Furthermore, some newcomers have not felt adequately welcomed. Yes, we acknowledge their first posts and share the boilerplate about key places to look for more info, but then we immediately fall back into talking about... ourselves. The newcomer can either push him/herself forward, which doesn't always feel comfortable, what with risk of rejection or being ignored. Or else it turns out that they are the friend of a salonista and have had everything explained in advance, as is the case with Lady Chattingly, Hypatia's sister.

There's been some offsite discussion about this. Initially, most of the salonistas in the conversation avowed that they feel comfortable with things just the way they are. I don't, and Mina doesn't, and we had just said so when we walked into that looping bug yesterday. Everyone got distracted.

Mina let a day go by for someone to respond to her points, and then wrote a rather strong email to some of us, with a few home truths, some of which I have rephrased above.

I have written a reply, and I have decided to bring it here, for everyone's attention, because it concerns us all. I invite the comments of both salonistas and lurkers.



I think our complacency is dangerous, in the long run, to the future of the atelier. Are we really so loveable that a newcomer should have to wade through 200 ephemeral posts just to find one with an interesting comment on a "topic" -- and then take the chance that their contribution will be buried under 25 more posts of what I did today?

It used to work because there were just a few of us. It doesn't work so well now, but we're not noticing it because it's been the same for so long. We are beginning to stagnate. Going back and reading old threads has been salutory for me: we were much more engaged with the rest of h2g2, with other fora, and people from other fora used to drop in and respond to what we were talking about. Also, the role play was much more a part of atelier life; it formed a loose sort of plot that moved the salon along. But most of you completely ignore that aspect of the atelier. You just want to chat, or so it seems, and chat about the stuff you already know.

Here's a quiz:
1. What does Ampton look like?
2. Who is Violets?
3. Who is Minoova?
4. How do we come to have an unau named Mindspring?
5. Why is the salon full of red velvet sofas?
6. Why does Matina bake mbougatses?
7. What was the name of the Celery's vice-presidential candidate during the 2000 elections?
8. What forum did Courtesy38 create?
9. What does CLI stand for?
10. What does Chloe look like?

Play! Why does hardly anyone want to PLAY any more? I believe that some salonistas have arrived, dismissed the role-play out of hand ("I don't do that kind of thing") but remained to talk because of reasons other than those that brought the atelier into existence in the first place. Some are faithful to the original idea of the atelier, but some have been thoughtless. Complete freedom of movement, to post anywhere, is one of H2G2's strong points, but researchers herding together because a place makes the Busiest Conversation List is a weakness.

I have tried to accomodate this. I have allowed the salon to become more and more disembodied, more and more a chat room, while trying to bolster the play and the real discussion in other threads, but it's not working for me very well any more.

I'm a hostess, Jim, not a doormat. The atelier is not the center of the h2g2 universe. More than a few people find it excessively self-centered. Yes, ~we're~ all comfortable with how it is, but that's complacency. And I have come full circle, so I'll stop.

Please do not have hurt feelings. I have run with the crowd in respect of personal gossip as much as any one else. But let's think about our larger host, Hootoo and the beeb. Don't you think we owe them a little more than what we are now?

Lil

I am also reviewing the very early conversations and agree that a greater percentage of the content was more substantitive.

Mina suggested that each of us could select a topic that interests us to introduce to the group. I think that's a good idea.

As to the role play, it was of a higher quality that what is generally present in other places on the site. Unfortunately, I haven't always had the time to participate.

Ok. I will begin posting personal remarks in my journal if I think they are of general interest. Now I'm off to try to find the absolutely perfect topic for discussion.

Hyp

<>

There's been a few times when a post of mine didn't get a response and I got a bit flustered about it but I didn't say anything because I was worried about getting ostracised...

1. What does Ampton look like? Err...
2. Who is Violets? Well...
3. Who is Minoova? Hmmm...
4. How do we come to have an unau named Mindspring?
5. Why is the salon full of red velvet sofas? Because... they look nice?
6. Why does Matina bake mbougatses? Ah...
7. What was the name of the Celery's vice-presidential candidate during the 2000 elections? *waves finger in an indecisive fashion*
8. What forum did Courtesy38 create? That one with the stuff...
9. What does CLI stand for? Crater Labs, Inc.! *beams proudly*
10. What does Chloe look like? *Points to Chloe* Like that

I must admit that the main reason why I don't do the roleplay aspect is because I forget... I do so much roleplaying in the "real world" that I can't keep my mind on it.

I like your quiz answers, Mr. D, even if most of the are, um, not quite to the point.





SPOILER:





Most of the answers can be found in the offsite pages.

I think I've forgotten to check some e-mails somewhere - I need to read and think before responding to your thoughts, Lil.

Meanwhile, the quiz sans the use of spoiler, just for the fun of it:

1. Ampton - wasn't he in the back seat in that picture with Affy and GL in a car? Hmmm... square head?

2. Violets - haven't seen her/them for a very long time - it was definitely a mistake to put wheels on the pot.

3. Minoova? Wasn't that the 'evil' bot that became obsessed and started behaving very oddly?

4. Mindspring was already here when I joined the Atelier, don't remember seeing anything about how or why - I do remember Loonytunes tricking me pretending to be Springie once though...

5. Red velvet sofas? Eh... those were also here when I joined...

6. Mbougatses? Because she's from Cyprus? Or was that Crete? Or at least she's wearing (or used to wear?) a traditional custome from either of those islands.

7. Dolores Webjello?

8. Courtesy... courtesy... - damn, should I know this?

9. Yeah, what Mr Dreadful said! And yes, I knew that one!

10. Has anyone really seen Chloe? Properly, I mean?

RHETORICAL QUIZ - ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS ONLY IN YOUR OWN MIND


Does the fact that the salon is not the same as it used to be mean that it is now a lesser place?

(a) yes
(b) no


Does the fact that h2g2 is not the same as it used to be mean that the salon is now

(a) Less important than it was when it started
(b) Less important in the grand scheme, but more important to individuals
(c) The one shining light in a dark e-world



Does the fact that h2g2 has the Forum as a location for substantive conversations and the Atelier as - whatever the Atelier has morphed into - make h2g2 richer or poorer?

(a) richer
(b) zero sum
(b) poorer



Does the fact that the Forum was started by a newbie who had not heard of CLI detract from the Atelier

(a) a lot?
(b) a bit?
(c) not at all?



Do people generally value friendships more if they are based on sharing their life experiences or based on sharing intellectual debate?

(a) shared life experiences
(b) shared debate



Do YOU generally value friendships more if they are based on sharing their life experiences or based on sharing intellectual debate?

(a) shared life experiences
(b) shared debate



How hard do you find it to find friends? How much do you value them when you find them?

(a) I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe - like-minded people are platinum dust, and I value them wherever I find them, because they are far and few between.

(b) I value good peeps wherever I find them, and welcome the fact that online relationships form without prejudice. Some of my online friends are more valuable to me than some of my so-called 'real' friends.

(c) I get along with most people, and most people get along with me. Easy come, easy go. Friendships are nice while they last.

(d) Why are you talking about friendship? This is the internet, right? My real friends are real people thanks, not geeks and wierdos and freaks and lonely nutters.



If the Atelier closed would you:

(a) Not notice

(b) Have an extra half hour or so each day to look round the rest of h2g2 and the other message boards you like

(c) Think 'well, that was nice while it lasted'

(d) Leave h2g2, because it's the peeps what keeps you here

(e) Hyperventilate

(f) Hourly

(g) For months

(h) Go into an odd but deep form of socially unacceptable mourning, because some of your most important friendships have been ripped out at the roots, and categorize your life into Before Atelier, During Atelier and After Atelier



Does it matter that the Atelier has morphed into something which Lil did not originally envision?

(a) Yes, Lil's vision was something really special, and going through those old threads means that I will never blog here again.

(b) It's a shame, but the landscape surrounding the Atelier has changed, and what it's morphed into is something pretty special.

(c) Lil's vision was right for the time, but it's achronistic in h2g2 as it currently stands. Ok, so I don't have a five figure U-number but I joined in the site's [nth] year of existance, and I am being made to feel like a gauche and unwelcome newbie.



The Salonistas are:

(a) A bunch of smug, complacent, arrogant, self-centred hypocrites who think they are oh so clever, oh so welcoming, oh so lovely, when all they do is demand conformity to their own pseudo-intellectual standards and whinge about their so-called life-traumas

(b) A pretty cliquey bunch, but nice when you meet them individually in other threads

(c) Rather sad. They all love each other so much, and think what they say is oh-so-interesting and matters. And then they swap jam recipes. Jam recipes?

(d) Cool. Very cool. Intersting, witty, talented, diverse, varied, funny, clever, polite, courteous, chatty, welcoming.

(e) My friends.

(f) My best friends.

(g) My best friends in the whole world. They are the parallel universe in which I can safely diagonally park.



"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is

(a) The first sign of complacency, if you don't change you will die

(b) A good way to let an entity evolve into something which is unanticipated but resilient

(c) The first rule of the universe

B aka Ben

Lil, on this page:

http://www.asterlil.com/h2g2/CLI.htm

there's a link in this sentence (marked with square brackets):

'When H2G2 celebrated its first anniversary with a parade in 2000, [CLI was there] to ride shotgun.'

I thought that link would lead to the CLI parade float? Instead, it's link to the very same page that it's on (CLI.htm)

Where was this conversation held? On the off-site topic drift? I'd like more context here, personally.

As I've stated before, other than a few private conversations with FG (as our banter is both off-putting to others and not very conducive to someone jumping in the middle), the Atelier is the only other place on h2g2 that I visit.

>> Why does hardly anyone want to PLAY any more?

When I joined h2g2 it seemed that was all that anyone *did* was play. Endlessly. Months and years of parties that went on endlessly, standing in line for donuts and having a cup of coffee with whoever stopped by. And you know what? A lot of those people just aren't around anymore. Did they leave because h2g2 changed, or because they changed and h2g2 didn't? We've all noticed climate changes of h2g2 - at least those of us that aren't over the U170000s have; but while some have left, others have found new places to explore in h2g2, while others yet have wanted something more "substantial" in their conversations.

To be quite honest, I don't think I have what it takes to actively participate in Play anymore. Sure, I might sidestep a linen closet or glance long-ways at a vegetable crisper or two, but I really can't see myself investing in the sort of long-term roleplaying that so many people grasp onto on h2g2. I want to hear how people are coping with RL, I want to hear if they saw a new movie, where they want this weekend, how that recipe for Blackbeard's pudding turned out.

>>but researchers herding together because a place makes the Busiest Conversation List is a weakness.

I'm not sure what to think of that statement, whatsoever. Do people really come here every day just because it reaches the Top 10 conversations? I know we used to joke and cheer whenever we made the frontpage, but that seems ages ago, back when there were fewer of us "salonistas" and it was just fun to see it on the frontpage at 4 in the morning.

>>while trying to bolster the play .... in other threads

Of course, after reading the above you might surmise just how thankful I am that you do keep certain things to different threads, such as getting the yearly christmas tree. Some days I will have time to read a few pages of posts on such a thread, other times not at all - I don't want to make other people feel as if their efforts in such threads have gone to waste from me having to skip over them which I would most certainly have to in the main thread. For some people the role playing aspect of h2g2 is their bread and butter, but for me I find it distracting unless I can put my whole attention to it, which I can't most of the time.

>>while trying to bolster ... the real discussion in other threads
And as for this, I've been against it. The reason why I keep coming to the atelier is because I can read about a couple dozen different thing, I can see some people having private conversations (off in a corner, as it were), while one group of people is talking about crumpets and another is talking about the latest dumbass move made by Dubya. By sequestering conversations into different threads, or saying 'I don't think that sort of thing should be discussed here - perhaps a different thread' ... well, I think that in fact drives some people away. Are they expected to follow all these other threads? Certainly not, but sometimes it feels that way. And besides that, it feels exclusionary - why is *my* topic of choice so devisive that it can't be talked about in the main atelier? Because that's how it certainly feels to me, as if you're being relegated elsewhere, that if you choose to talk about x or y, then you simply don't belong here.

>>Don't you think we owe them a little more than what we are now?

No. We're not the end-all, be-all. We're just another thread in a sea of them. One that some people enjoy coming to now and then. Even as a host, I can't imagine you feeling as though you owe other researchers, h2g2 or the beeb something in return - you have provided a place that people continually come to, daily, with sometimes thoughtful conversation and othertimes not so much I think it is a testament that after all these years people still come here for the conversation - I know I still enjoy it (I still lurked even when I wasn't posting on h2g2) and will continue to do so for some time.



Frankly, I think the Atelier is whatever the people that visit it make of it. If I know someone talks endlessly about gardening, while I have a black thumb and can kill an ivy from 40 yards, well, I won't be contributing to any coversation about identifying a plant. On the same scale, if someone brings up one of my favorite authors I will be overjoyed and join right in on the conversation. That's what I love about the atelier and it sounds like that's what is a problem for so many others. I think that if a topic doesn't get discussed either, yes, it was lost (how many of us keep notes on the side, or say 'I must remember to post about...' ?) or maybe another topic superceded, as silly as that sounds, your own (immediacy is usually the case there). I've never felt overlooked here. I know I don't type as much as others here and I have been whiny, on occasion, however I don't mind speaking right up and restating a topic if it was skipped over - I don't think as many people are though.

What Pius Loungers, Look! said.

Who the is Pius Loungers, Look? I am SO crap at anagrams.

The Atelier provides me with things I cannot get elsewhere.

Everything which you say it does not provide, Lil, such as role play and substantive conversation I *can* get elswhere, either here on h2g2 or elsewhere on the web. I come here because it is unique, and because a lot of my friends hang out here. Take that away, replace it with stuff I don't want and amn't interested in, and - so what - just another role-play site, just another debate forum.

If the Atelier closes I will leave h2g2. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of my life.

B

Sporkolious Eglon



Did I spell that correctly?

How very interesting. Thank you.

What Sporky said then.

B

sorry, i forgot to sign -

sporky

*creeps in, listens to the debate so far*

Well, the one time I wanted to and tried to join in a role play here, so many people already knew all the 'rules' and memes and in-jokes and already had cool personas and interactions they could seamlessly slip into. I felt very quickly completely out of my depth and as the already-role-players were quite clearly well away into the game, I didn't see who I could approach or even what to say if I did, on the subject of 'help, what do I do? What's going on?'

Yes, I could read old role-play threads and sort-of get a handle on it, and indeed did, for HOURS, but I'd've loved someone to have taken me under their wing a little. I have never had much of a chance to role-play before, as much as I like the idea of it. So I felt left out.

On the other hand, I adore the Atelier as a giant communal blog/chat-room/discussion group simply because I adore all the people in it, their wit and lovely minds and I am genuinely interested in their doings. I could go round to journals, but I myself don't journal much, I'd rather chat about stuff as and when someone else's remarks make me think of it.

So I do think it'd be fun to have more role-playing, if someone would be a sweetheart and look after me for the first adventure. But I would feel very sad and lost if the Atelier stopped being a lovely place to stop by and chatter. This past year, while I have been very unemployed and increasingly lonely (lost touch with friends from Uni, other good friends moved away from London...), depressed and frustrated by it, the Atelier was possibly the one thing, the one place, that kept me going, gave me a sense of my own worth as people so kindly laughed at my jokes and said nice things to me about my intelligence and wit, that gave me a circle of friends who didn't despise me for being unwaged, who didn't see me merely as S's odd bookish wife, or that fat speccy girl who keeps hanging about in the library. No other thread, forum or website has been so good for me. Even S says that he's glad I had you lot during that bad time.

Lil, I'm sorry you are dissatisfied with the way things are going. I hope very much we can find a pleasing and delightful solution. But I would hate to see you undervaluing what the Atelier has become because it isn't what it was anymore. It is very different, I know. And perhaps does miss that sparkle. But it is still a unique place and, to me, a special place. Oh damn, now I'm tearing up. Excuse me a minute.

*hands Ag a hanky*

Oops. No, not that bit. That's the bit that I got damp.

Here....

*hands her a clean hanky*

Did I at least make the 2nd LED?

This is what happens when I don't log in at school.

>> Play! Why does hardly anyone want to PLAY any more? (Lil)

I've been thinking about this. It's because we grew up. Or more accurately it's because our relationships with each other have developed, changed, deepened and grown up.

Playing, particularly on-line role-playing, is a great way of avoiding intimacy. Hey - I like you dude - I don't know if you are a guy or a chick, but you can sure do a mean role-play.

Yeah.

Right.

What has happened is we have got past the point where we need to pretened to be other than we are in this group in order to cover our embarrasments and shyness.

The Never Starting Story was an interesting jeux d'esprit which was aborted early by Pinniped for reasons which I never fully understood. He then started another one saying in effect - "Come on you lot, have fun. Like this. Now. It's the time for some spontanious game playing. I've been planning it for weeks."

Yeah.

As I have already said.

Right.

What we have here is so very special that it really upsets me here *points*
*Z looks on interestedly and gets out his anatomy colouring book*
right here.

B