h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

In fact, China's claim is even weaker than that. See Chai's excellent thing, 'Tibet - China's Claim to Rule' (A2186336). You're right though; it's an absurd argument , in any case.

Another example would be America 'peacefully liberating' Canada on the grounds that both countries were bits of the British Empire - better not say that too loudly; they just might. At least America and Canada share the same language and common culture. Even that much can't be said of China and Tibet.

I don't think Tibet should break away from China for Tibet has become a very important part of China since hundreds of years ago.If someone suppose to lead Tibet to a independent country,he would bring deseas to chinese including people in Tibet.

What we're talking about here is the fact that at some point in history, through a dynastic marriage, China was owned by Tibet. Not the other way round. At the moment Tibet is invaded by China.

Hello, badapple. Welcome.

I don't think the facts, as they're generally recognised, support the idea that Tibet was ever a part of China. Take a look at this: A2177967. Certainly, there is a long history of a close relationship between Tibet and Imperial China. But I think that has been used to mislead people about the communist invasion in 1950.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about someone bringing disease to China and Tibet.

JTG

Unease?

Yes, I see your point. It would make interesting reading. Why not pursue it yourself? There are probably dozens of examples you could use.

Sorry, that was a bit of a muddle. I was answering Badapple in 44 and you, Recumbentman, in 46. I think we posted at the same time.

JTG

March 10th is the Tibetan festival of Monlam, remembered particularly as the anniversary of the day in 1959 when the Chinese opened fire on the crowds surrounding the Dalai Lama's residence in Lhasa. And again in 1987 and 1989 when there were spontaneous demonstrations against Chinese oppression, and again the Chinese shot into the unarmed crowds.

This year a demonstration is being held in London on Sunday March 7th, 1.30pm, Portland Place, outside the Chinese Embassy, marching from there to the Foreign Office. If you're around, and can spare the time and enthusiasm, come along. I'll be there,

Cheers,

Chaiwallah.

I wish I could. I'll be there in spirit.

If anyone else is on the wrong side of the Atlantic to join Chai in London, join me outide the Chinese consulate in Toronto.

Wherever you are there may be something going on within a short drive, particularly if there is a Chinese embassy or consular office where you live. If not, you can always get involved by writing to the nearest embassy and also to your local newspaper.

JTG

There has been some very active campaigning in South Africa recently. Two groups that you might want to take a closer look at are,

The Tibet Society of South Africa

http://www.tibet.org.za/

and

South African Friends of Tibet

http://www.geocities.com/saftibet/

Here is a list of some recent Tibet-related news and activity in South Africa:

'The Happy people', The Witness

http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2004/2/17_7.html

'Church to support Tibet Campaign', The Southern Cross

http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2004/2/17_6.html

'At least we are talking'

http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2004/2/17_8.html

'Nelson Madela rejects call to help Tibetans'

http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2004/2/11_7.html

'Dalai Lama's envoy praises Gold Fields for its ethical stance.'

http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2004/2/9-2_2.html

'Lodi Gyari Rinpoche visits South Africa'

http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2004/2/9-2_3.html

'Tibetans, supporters brave English weather to mark Tibet Day'

- a report on yesterday's embassy protest in London:

http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2004/3/8_5.html

I admit that I have made some mistakes of my spelling.I mean that the confict of course will bring disaster to both the people of Tibet and people of another places of China.
And I think that there is no doult that Tibet is a part of China.
Enve thoug there is something wrong with the Chinese goverment,it's not necessary to break away from China.Like many other countries,something unfair and not democratic is normal,especailly for a developing country.
If all the people like someone in Tibet what to break away because of something unfair,I want to know what the world would be like!

I can see that you're trying to say something peaceable , badapple, and your spelling isn't important so long as we can follow what you say. But you seem to be making strange points:

"Like many other countries,something unfair and not democratic is normal,especailly for a developing country."

Are you suggesting that we leave bad things alone, just because they can be expected to happen?

"If all the people like someone in Tibet [want] to break away because of something unfair,I want to know what the world would be like!"

Better. The unfairness of what is happening in Tibet is not matched in many other places; and many of those places where it *is* equally unfair are in violent upheaval. Tibet suffers in relative silence and still the rest of the world pays little heed; they must be sorely tempted to make much more disruption.

Ni hao Zeng,

Renshi ni hen gaoxing. I guessed you must be Chinese from your remarks about Tibet, and now I've visited your home page. As you can see, I'm trying to learn Mandarin, and I hope we can be friends. It is a sign of a good friendship when people can disagree about things, and still be friends.

You said,"I think that there is no doubt that Tibet is a part of China."

There is indeed no doubt that Tibet is now a Chinese colony, because China invaded Tibet in 1950, and Tibet has been under Chinese rule ever since. But if you ask any Tibetan, I think you will find that they have no doubt that Tibet is not part of China. And most people in the free world would agree with them. Tibet was an independent country in every meaning of the word at the time of the Chinese invasion in 1950.

I do not expect you to agree with this, because if your knowledge of Chinese history was learnt in a Chinese school in mainland China, this is what you will have been told, that Tibet is part of the Motherland.

You will also have been told to believe in "One China." But the idea of "One China" is a political idea which Mao Zedong took from the old Empire view of China. It is not based on geography, language or race.

As you know, even among the so-called "Han" Chinese, there are 10 totally different languages, including Mandarin ( with 523 dialects )Jin ( 124 dialects ) Wu ( 94 dialects ) Gau ( 64 dialects ) Hokkien Min ( 69 dialects ) Cantonese Yue ( 44 dialects ) Kejia Hakka ( 28 dialects ) Xiang ( 26 dialects ) Pinghua ( 8 dialects ) and Huainan ( 5 dialects ).

At the time of China's largest empire, under the Qing dynasty, the rulers were Manchu people, whose language doesn't even belong to the "Chinese group." It belongs to the Mongolian/Turkic group, and used a totally different, alphabetic script, written in long lines and read from left to right ( unlike classical Mandarin.) The Manchu emperors on their maps did not use Chinese words for non-Chinese parts they claimed as their "empire", such as Tibet, Turkestan and Mongolia. The Manchu emperors did not appoint Chinese governors for non-Chinese areas. But the Manchu Qing dynasty was the time of "China's" greatest influence in Tibet. When the Manchu Qing dynasty fell in 1911, Tibet declared its independence, and all Chinese soldiers and officials were expelled from Tibet.

In fact, Manchuria is now part of China, and not part of the former Soviet Union ( like Mongolia ) because Russia was defeated there by Japan,( which seized Manchuria in 1931 ) and the Japanese were later defeated there by Chiang Kai-Shek, who was later defeated by MaoZedong's Red Army in 1949.

Apart from all this, Tibet is and always was separated from China by its geography ( surrounded by impassable mountains and gorges ) by its race and by its language ( the Tibetans are Turkic/Mongoloid, and Tibetan script is derived from Indian Sanskrit ).

Of course, the Chinese government in Beijing does not agree with this view, because it is in their interest to maintain "One China." But Xinjiang was the Republic of East Turkestan, and its people were mainly Muslim Hui and Uighyurs. Also Mongolia was Mongolian and Manchuria was Manchu until China took control. In all of these occupied countries Chinese immigrants have become the majority population, even in Tibet.

But that does not make Tibet part of China.

Enough history for now. There was a Chinese saying which Mao Zedong often used..."Seek truth from facts." The problem in China is that the only truth allowed is the government's version of the truth. If you are a Tibetan and even say "Tibet is not part of China," you are put in prison.

Cheers,

Chaiwallah.

It's impossibe that different people have no different opinions.I couldn't agree more that two people have some disagreements can become friend.I'm very glad that you choose me as your friend.I would say I will your friend.
Well,let's continue our topic.
If a country is not based on race,language and geography,what it will be based on? You said that even the Hai chinese have many diffent languages. It is true that the languages as you list out is quite different,but it doesn't mean that they are different kinds of languages.They all come from the ancient chinese.The ancient chinese developed in so large a country,so there is no doult that chinese now have some differences in different areas just like Englis in the USA and the Great Britain.
Now,I'm not quite clear the history.Surely,I should go the library and read more about the history.I think,as Mao Zedong said :seek truth from the fact.I think history is the fact.Then we can continue.

Ni hao Zeng,

Wo hen gaoxingde women shi pengyao. ( That's probably not correct...)

Anyway, you said, "I think history is the fact." That is a very optimistic( leguande ?) view of history. History is stories written by people, who want other people to believe their version ( shuofa ?) This is as true of Tibet and China as of anywhere else. Tibetans tell one story, the Chinese government tells a different story.

But if Tibet was really part of China, why did Mao Zedong need to send a huge army to conquer ( gongqu ?) Tibet? At the time he said it was "to drive out American/British imperialist forces!" In fact there were only six British people and one American in all of Tibet at that time.

The same is true of Taiwan. China now says Taiwan should be part of "One China," and that Taiwan is a province of the People's Republic of China. In fact, for most of the 20th century, Taiwan was ruled by Japan. In the 1930's and 1940's Mao Zedong said Taiwan was a separate country, and treated the Taiwanese Communist Party as separate from the Chinese Communist Party. He actually encouraged Taiwanese independence until Chiang Kai-Shek and the Guomindang took refuge there after the civil war ended in 1949. The Taiwanese Communist Party proclaimed three principles: Taiwan nationality (minzu), Taiwan revolution (geming) and Taiwan independence (duli).

Even Chiang Kai-Shek had sent an ambassador to Taipei, which shows that he also thought Taiwan was a separate country. After 1949, for the rest of Mao's life, China was not strong enough to invade and capture Taiwan. And the Guomindang "Republic of China" under Chiang Kai-Shek was not strong enough to invade the PRC and defeat Mao.

What the PRC government is now afraid of is the democracy in Taiwan and Hong Kong. The President of Taiwan is the only democratically elected leader in all of China's history. No-one in the PRC government has been elected by the people of China. Before Mao Zedong took power in 1949, there had been dictators like Chiang Kai-Shek, war-lords, and before them the emperors. We have seen recently in Hong Kong that Beijing is trying to reduce the democratic voice of the people.

That's enough "facts from history" for now,

Cheers,

Chaiwallah

<<>>

Hi John - and everyone

Thank you for your welcome, and for inviting me here.
Right, introduction... My name is Dave, and I have been Buddist since Early 2001. It means an awful lot to me, and HH The Dalai Lama is so much a mentor to me.
The plight of Tibet and it's people also mean a lot to me, and I am looking forward to joining in many an interesting conversation here.

Peace and Light
Dave

Welcome, davy_boy.

Badapple and Chai. This is exactly the sort of thing we should aspire to, and what h2g2 Friends of Tibet is all about. My compliments to you both!

JTG

Welcome!Everyone here can became friend here thoug they may hold different ideas.

Thanks very much!

Welcom!We are very glad more and more people jion in our discusion!