h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Oops, that should read, 'Tibetan Photo Project's exhibition at the Meadows Museum'.

Tashi delek to all readers and lurkers. Tonight is the New Moon, and tomorrow is Losar, the Tibetan New Year ( which this years coincides with the Chinese.)

Happy New Year

Tashi Dalek....

And a thought to our friends in Nepal who are currently in a state of emergency since the king has "fired" the Prime Minister and the government.

Happy New Year.

Mudhooks, have you been able to get in touch with Tashi? I've heard that the phones, Internet, etc. have been shut down. I'll add something to our Current Projects section about the situation in Nepal asap.

In the meantime, there is an Australian Tibet Council letter campaign underway:

http://www.atc.org.au/news/alerts/20050208_uaneptiboffice.html

Perhaps the simplest thing would be to add links to the Australian campaign, unless there is another that you would prefer. Let me know if there is something else we can do.

I haven't, and I haven't tried, since the wife of my former minister is there at the moment and he says he can't contact her.

I should send an email so that when he finally can have access to it, he can reply and I'll know for sure.

i'm a chinese from shangdong province china. i love my country and i believe what had done for tibet are good for tibetans.now china is doing its best to improve the west's economy,tibet is a part of china now and it will be so forever, i believe!!

renzhou9

Unfortunately, you have only the propoganda of your government to go on for your misinformed position on the plight of Tibet and Tibetans.

I have the personal experiences of a number of close personal friends, as well as my boyfriend, all of whom are Tibetan and have suffered at the hands of your government.

I am sorry that you are so sheltered from the truth of what your government has done to Tibet.

China does not, no matter how many lies they tell to you, have ownership of Tibet, nor have they a historical right, despite their attempts to rewrite thousands of years of history, to Tibet.

I just want to say something here. It is good to love one's own country! But one should not confuse love of one's country with uncritical acceptance of what the 'leaders' of one's country do.

For the record: I love China and Chinese people! I live in South Africa and there are many Chinese here. I frequently go to Chinese restaurants. Remember these are not 'American'-style Chinese restaurants, they are set up by Chinese people here in South Africa. I once was in a restaurant where everybody else except for me and the people with me were Chinese and they were all reading Chinese newspapers. I am interested in Chinese culture - past and present - and Chinese history. I would love to go to China someday. Not just a single part - different parts! I'd love to visit different provinces - including the Shandong province!

I am also grateful for China being there to 'balance' the political and economical power in the World.

The thing is this, though ... I can still be critical of some of what the government of China does. The government are only representatives of the Chinese people. The govermnet *are* also only people. They can make mistakes, and they do make mistakes.

Here in South Africa I have lived through a troubling period. At the start of this period, the South African Government believed that it did what was best for all the people. However, some of those people did not particularly like what was being done to them, and they rose up in rebellion against the government, and eventually they *won*. The government had to change and now we have a new government and we now all agree that what we did in the past was really, really, wrong and bad.

You may say that the Tibetans will never ever be able to win against the Government of China! Therefore the government will never be changed, or forced to admit that it has done anything wrong.

The problem is that many people in the rest of the world are looking at what China is doing in Tibet, and many people are agreeing that it *is* wrong. Maybe some day the rest of the world will force China to change what it's doing to Tibet ... will force China to give up its possession of Tibet ... will punish China for what it has done there. Now if this happens I believe it would be a bad thing. It would hurt and weaken China.

Much better would be if the Chinese government acted in such a manner that it could not be legitimately criticised by the rest of the world! This would *strengthen* China.

Please understand that when people say that the Chinese Government is doing something wrong, it's not because those people hate China or its people. I personally do *not* want to see China punished or weakened.

I loved my country in the days of Apartheid, when it was committing great wrongs and harms, and I still love my country, even though it is still committing harms and wrongs. I want my country to not do anything bad, because anything that my government does that is wrong, ultimately hurts everyone in this country. This is the same for any country anywhere in the world. When you hurt a part of the people in a country, you hurt all of the people in that country.

In the past, Tibetan people were killed by Chinese because of wanting the continued independence of their country. Tibetan people are still being imprisoned for the same 'crime', and if it wasn't for international pressure, many Tibetans would still be executed for that 'crime'. In my opinion - and the opinions of many other people who are educated and considerate - it is not a crime for Tibetans to want independence for themselves and their country.

This is the essence of what is wrong ... Tibetans do not want to live under the rule of China. Even if you could prove that the Chinese government could do a better job of governing Tibet than Tibetan leaders can ... it is still wrong to *force* a people to submit to the rule of another people. As long as they feel forced to submit like this, their pride and honour will be hurt, they will feel wronged, they will feel as if a vital part of their freedom has been taken from them.

If you are doing this for the good of the Tibetan people, why continue when it is obvious that the Tibetan people are not happy with what is being done for/to them? And if you concede that what is being done is *not* being done for the good of the Tibetan people - but solely to strengthen 'China' as a monolithic entity - its government and economy - you truly do have a problem legitimising it. Because if that is your position as a matter of principle, you can thereby justify every act of war, conquest, occupation and oppression anywhere in the world.

I do not believe that the people of China, or its government, are unreasonable. I do think there's room for persuasion. Even if Tibet is granted some sort of autonomy, short of full independence - and, especially, an end to political persecution and imprisonment of Tibetans campaigning for freedom - it might be a solution of benefit to all sides.

i can only say that you know little about china's history and situation.
now china is doing his best to improve the tibet's economy and provide better living condition for the tibetens.
we know that is a poverty area.most of the tibetens would have a peaceful situation.they believe our government and our government respect the tibetens' belief.
but a minority of tibetens attempt to separate the tibet from our great country.all the people of china will fight against those persons.and i tell you that the those persons just for their own interests。

renzhou9

I respect your right to your opinion. I am sure that on many other subjects, we would be in complete agreement. We might even be friends. Unfortunately, it is sometimes harder to accept truth and easier to accept things that you have been told all you life. The fact is, you have been told many things that are not true.

In fact I know a great deal of China's history and situation. I also know a great deal about the history and culture of Tibet. The fact is that Tibet was, until the invasion by your government in 1949, a sovereign nation, living peacfully within its borders.

In fact, where you say that your government has been "good" for the people of Tibet, I am sorry to say that you are entirely wrong. The fact that your goverment has driven out a great number of the Tibetan people and killed thousands more. Rather than there being a few "troublemakers", there is a country full of oppressed and harrassed people who are not permitted decide for themselves their own destiny in their own country. Your government has filled the country with its own countrymen to the disadvantage of the Tibetan people.

Atrocities have been committed by your government and its military for many, many, many years.

These are facts. These are well documented by such independant organizations as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. These bodies have reported at length about the conditions in Tibet and the conditions of the people. Your government may disagree whith thse reports. However, these reports are, as I said, well documented. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, amongst other groups are non-partisan groups who make studies of all countries and criticize abuses wherever they see them, whether in China, in Tibet, or in the United States. They are active in criticising the American government for its treatment of prisoners in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay: http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng

You are free to believe these things or not. However, I know from personal sotries of Tibetans I know and love what they and their families have endured in their lives. I also know many Westerners who have been to Tibet and seen with their own eyes what is happening and happened to Tibet under the Chinese occupation.

I have friends who work with the thousands of orphan children either living in Tibet or in exile in Nepal and India, whose parents have been murdered by your government or been too poor to care for them because their livlihoods have been stolen from them. I know people who have been tortured and beaten by the Chinese authorities in Tibet. I knw people who have had brothers, sisters, children, mothers and fathers who have "disappeared", taken by the army for no other reason that that they were Buddhist or that they wished to live their lives freely and without fear.

I am sorry to tell you these things. I am sorry that you will probably not believe me. However, I speak the truth and I will continue to speak the truth whether it is accepted by you or your government.

I will hope that you read the articles from the links below.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA170162002?open&of=ENG-CHN
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-2s2/news
http://www.amnesty.org/results/is/eng

My girlfriend has a friend who is going to climb Mt. Everest and she will be going to see my boyfriend while she is in Katmandhu! I missed my chance to get a parcel to him when my other friend who goes regularly went after Christmas. Unfortunately, both I and my mother had been so sick that I just couldn't get it together to meet up with her.

I will likely have more photos, since I gave him a couple of disposable cameras a while ago. He is such a handsome fellow.

Hi everyone. Sorry for being out of circulation for so long. It's good to come back to such an interesting and meaningful discussion. The megalomaniacs of Washington, Beijing, any of the world's capitols and most of its boardrooms could learn a lot from such a friendly exchange of opposing ideas. On the other hand, perhaps the lesson we should learn is that they don't want us to believe in such things ourselves. Can any of the world's problems, including the occupation of Tibet be much more complicated than listening and sharing with trust and respect.

Welcome, renzhou9. It takes courage to express an unpopular point of view. My own view is that China is harming Tibet and its own interests by continuing to deny basic human rights and freedom and persecuting innocent people. China must free itself from fear, which it can only do by allowing human beings to flourish in accordance to their own customs and heartfelt desires, which is their right. Nevertheless, I hope that you will continue to join us in friendly discussion of this very important subject.

Unmentionable, I think that SA is a marvelous example of what can be achieved by people with a vision of a better world.

Mudhhooks, I hope that you and mum are feeling better and that the news from Nepal is good.

JTG

Tashi delek! You are right, The Tibetan Photo Project really is something special! A treat for us all.

Tashi delek. Thanks, WurmSoup, it certainly is special. Wangden's documentary film, 'Voices in Exile' is going to be amazing.

This is not Tibet-related, but very pretinent to the plight of people in so very many other countries who are simply trying to make a better life for themselves and their fellow citizens: http://www.petitiononline.com/zanon/petition.html

That, of course, should have read: "very pertinent"

Not directly Tibet-related perhaps, but to fight injustice anywhere is to fight it everywhere, or something like that. I've added my name to the petition. Thanks, Mudhooks.

Have you seen KazSorrel's 'Human Rights Watch' feature in the Post? - A3798156.

Here is His Holiness the Dalai Lama's message of condolence for His Holiness Pope John Paul II:

http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2005/4/4_1.html

Please excuse the extreme length of the following entry. It is a translation of an interview Chinese Environment Deputy Minister Pan Yue gave to "Der Spiegel" in March. It has to be read in its entirety. It is the most astonishing statement to come out of China for years.

Cheers,

C \|/

CHINESE MINISTER WARNS “END OF CHINESE MIRACLE.”

This is an unprecedented admission from a Chinese Minister, the like of which we Tibet Supporters have never seen before. It bears out what we’ve been hearing, and reporting, for some years, but never before from such a senior level of Chinese Government. The implications, in terms of what the Minister calls “eco-refugees,” are quite alarming. As so much of our various Werstern governments' energy seems to be going into China lately, it may be of interest.

DER SPIEGEL 10/2005 - March 7, 2005
Interview with China's Deputy Minister of the
Environment

"The Chinese Miracle Will End Soon"

The world has been dazzled in recent years by the
economic strides being made by China. But it has come
at a huge cost to the country's environment. Pollution
is a serious and costly problem. Pan Yue of the
ministry of the environment says these problems will
soon overwhelm the country and will create millions of
"environmental refugees."

SPIEGEL: China is dazzling the world with its booming
economy, which grew by 9.5 percent. Aren't you pleased
with this speed of growth?

Pan: Of course I am pleased with the success of
China's economy. But at the same time I am worried. We
are using too many raw materials to sustain this
growth. To produce goods worth $10,000, for example,
we need seven times more resources than Japan, nearly
six times more than the United States and, perhaps
most embarrassing, nearly three times more than India.
Things can't, nor should they be allowed to go on like
that.

SPIEGEL: Such a viewpoint is not exactly widespread in
your country.

Pan: Many factors are coming together here: Our raw
materials are scarce, we don't have enough land, and
our population is constantly growing. Currently, there
are 1.3 billion people living in China, that's twice
as many as 50 years ago. In 2020, there will be 1.5
billion people in China. Cities are growing but desert
areas are expanding at the same time; habitable and
usable land has been halved over the past 50 years.

SPIEGEL: Still, each year China is strengthening its
reputation as an economic Wunderland.

Pan: This miracle will end soon because the
environment can no longer keep pace. Acid rain is
falling on one third of the Chinese territory, half of
the water in our seven largest rivers is completely
useless, while one fourth of our citizens does not
have access to clean drinking water. One third of the
urban population is breathing polluted air, and less
than 20 percent of the trash in cities is treated and
processed in an environmentally sustainable manner.
Finally, five of the ten most polluted cities
worldwide are in China.

SPIEGEL: How great are the effects of this
environmental degradation on the economy?

Pan: It's massive. Because air and water are polluted,
we are losing between 8 and 15 percent of our gross
domestic product. And that doesn't include the costs
for health. Then there's the human suffering: In
Bejing alone, 70 to 80 percent of all deadly cancer
cases are related to the environment. Lung cancer has
emerged as the No. 1 cause of death.

SPIEGEL: How is the population reacting to these
health problems? Are people moving to healthier parts
of the country?

Pan: Even now, the western regions of China and the
country's ecologically stressed regions can no longer
support the people already living there. In the
future, we will need to resettle 186 million residents
from 22 provinces and cities. However, the other
provinces and cities can only absorb some 33 million
people. That means China will have more than 150
million ecological migrants, or, if you like,
environmental refugees.

SPIEGEL: Hasn't your government tried to get pollution
under control?

Pan: Yes it has, and in some cities such as Beijing
the air quality has, in fact, improved. Also, the
water in some rivers and lakes is now cleaner than
it's been in the past. There are more conservation
areas now and some model cities that focus
specifically on environmental protection. We are
replanting forests. We have passed additional laws and
regulations that are stricter than in the past and
they are being more rigorously enforced.

SPIEGEL: But the economic growth fanatics in Beijing
will still likely carry on just as before.

Pan: They're still playing the lead role -- for now.
For them, the gross domestic product is the only
yardstick by which to gauge the government's
performance. But we are also making another mistake:
We are convinced that a prospering economy
automatically goes hand in hand with political
stability. And I think that's a major blunder. The
faster the economy grows, the more quickly we will run
the risk of a political crisis if the political
reforms cannot keep pace. If the gap between the poor
and the rich widens, then regions within China and the
society as a whole will become unstable. If our
democracy and our legal system lag behind the overall
economic development, various groups in the population
won't be able to protect their own interests. And
there's yet another mistake in this thinking.....

SPIEGEL: Which one?

Pan: It's the assumption that the economic growth will
give us the financial resources to cope with the
crises surrounding the environment, raw materials, and
population growth.

SPIEGEL: Why can't that work?

Pan: There won't be enough money, and we are simply
running out of time. Developed countries with a per
capita gross national product of $8,000 to $10,000 can
afford that, but we cannot. Before we reach $4,000 per
person, different crises in all shapes and forms will
hit us. Economically we won't be strong enough to
overcome them.

SPIEGEL: You have advocated the introduction of the
so-called "green gross domestic product." What does
that entail?

Pan: It is a model that also takes into account the
costs of growth, like environmental pollution for
example, and is a topic we are discussing with German
experts. We want the performance of functionaries to
not only be measured in terms of economic growth but
also in terms of how they solve environmental problems
and social issues.

SPIEGEL: Does your agency even have the ability to
clamp down on environmental criminals?

Pan: We recently shut down 30 projects, including
several power plants -- one of those at the Three
Gorges Dam. The companies involved failed -- as
required by law -- to review what effect their new
investments would have on the environment.

SPIEGEL: But 26 other projects were allowed to carry
on. They only had to pay small fines -- peanuts
compared to the billions that were invested.

Pan: Unfortunately, that's true. Which is why our laws
and regulations need to be reformed. Even though we
have little power, we will close down illegal
projects, including economically powerful steel,
cement, aluminium, and paper factories. And we will
ignore the agendas followed by influential officials
and companies.

SPIEGEL: Many environmental offenders have fistfuls of
cash or are taking advantage of their political
connections....


Pan: My agency has always gone against the grain. In
the process, there have always been conflicts with the
powerful lobbyist groups and strong local governments.
But the people, the media, and science are behind us.
In fact, the pressure is a motivator for me. Nobody is
going to push me off my current course.

SPIEGEL: China lacks a grassroots, environmental
movement. So far, the citizens have very little
opportunity to stand up against questionable projects.
Courts sometimes don't even accept the suits that the
people are filing, and voicing opposition is not
allowed.

Pan: Political co-determination should be part of any
socialist democracy. I want more discussions with the
people affected. However, I am not one to put on a
show just to look democratic to the outside. We need a
law that enables and guarantees public participation,
especially when it comes to environmental projects. If
it's safe politically to get involved and help the
environment, then all sides will benefit. We must try
to convince the central leadership of that.

Interview conducted by Andreas Lorenz

Translated from the German by Patrick Kessler