h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

No worries, we probably don't need you there anyway

Morning FB

I think you are a little 'blinded' as to the reason why the original thread was closed. I expect this is in part due to your agreement with Ed's principles if not his actions.

If anyone should be peeved I should. I started it off, and although after Post1 it is public property , I retained a 'proprietorial' interest!

It didn't surprise me at all that the Ed's simply shut it. It was the only way to shut Edward up and to stop him continuing attempts to get round the rules. As SWL says , Ed 'stopped' the thread because he simply could not obey the House Rules. As to whether he was adequately warned, only he can tell.

So I am sad but also glad that the insult swapping has been stopped.

Novo

To me it's simple: All the supposed defenders of freedom (FB, Ed, kea, etc.) have never answered the question posed in post 17: Is attacking Christianity racism?

That to me seals the deal. Their failure demonstrates their hypocrisy.

That's an interesting point you raise Arnie. It could be that for some reason people assume a clear separation between Christianity and ethnicity. This seems less true certainly for Jews. And for some reason with Muslims. Maybe that's because WASPs don't tend to be Jews or Muslims but they are often 'Christian'. Yes there is a degree of hypocrisy, I would agree.

Well...I don't recall having been asked the question. But I'm happy enough to answer.

First of all...one has to ask whether *in this country* (Not in Saudi Arabia, not in China, etc. etc.) there's a general climate of attacking Christianity. Self-inflicted martyrdom over costume jewellery, the mythical 'banning' of Christmas and the demented ramblings of Ann Atkins aside...I think not.

However - in contemporary Britain there has been a clear trend towards criticism of Islam...or, rather, the criticism of the *worst* of self-proclaimed muslims and the generalisation of the criticism to *all* Muslims. Further, there have been subtle and not so subtle attempts to use the word 'Muslim' as an alternative to 'Asian'. I draw your attention to the following piece of case law, in which criticism of Muslims *was* found to be racist. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2356837.stm .

So it seems to me reasonably clear while Christianity and Islam *can* be criticised on equal footing, and in a non-racist way (Hell - I'm an Atheist Fundamentalist. Give me any religion and I'll criticise it for you!), the contemporary zeitgeist suggests that there is frequently a certain sub-text (conscious or otherwise) to criticisms of Muslims which is not present in discussions of Christianity. We should be aware of such suberfuge and question whether we are being led into the trap. Christians in particular should be wary of attempts to foster a 'them and us' mentality. Christians, Muslims and Atheists alike are all 'Us', surely?

I agree with the whole of your mail, except that I think there are some them and us issues.

I would argue that all fundamentalist religious people, whether lobbying for intelligent design in the US, writing in the Daily Heil or leaving bombs on tubes are equally as dangerous to me and my life style in the long run.

I therefore put them all in the box called 'them'. The us box is all non-religious, weakly religious or tolerant religious people, no matter what their deity.

I think that one of the major challenges facing the next generation is resolving the conflict between faith based people and reason based people.

sprout

I myself feel extremely critical of Muslim religious dogma. In common with orthodox Judaism and Christianity it would probably quite happily see someone like me, (bisexual), wiped from the face of the earth. I like to think that I can separate religion from ethnicity. How true this is for people in general in the present climate I have no idea.

"To me it's simple: All the supposed defenders of freedom (FB, Ed, kea, etc.) have never answered the question posed in post 17: Is attacking Christianity racism?

That to me seals the deal. Their failure demonstrates their hypocrisy."

Sorry I must have missed the time limit on your post Dealer. Can you make it clearer in future how long I have to respond to your posts?

What dispensation is availible if I cannot respond in time? Due to work or someting? Is there an office where I must go to request an extension?

So as to your question:-

"Are people who constantly complain about Christianity also racist?"

Well surely I need a bit more information? I have not said that *anyone* criticising Islam is a racist. However after carefull consideration over a number of posts I feel some researchers have specifically picked on Islam in a way that is so redolant of the BNPs tactics I cxan only assume that they share a similar underlying philosophy.

I can imagine a sitution in which someone could be using criticism of christianity as a racist tool, but until the context and the circumstances are known I could not say for definate.

Can I also say Arnie that I thought post 23 was incredibly rude and uncalled for.

btw...I wasn't going to contribute to this thread, but Arnie asked me a direct question. It would have been churlish - and hypocritical - not to respond.

D'ya reckon he's regretting it?

Hello people did you miss me? (rhetorical, I know some of you will have missed me the same way a dog misses fleas)

And a Big hello to prashna nice to have you on board.


So what's been happening?

Im guessing that Eddy was *badgering* someone regarding racism laden posts.

Well here's a little heads up for you Novo, I've been here a few years and thus know that infact TPTB have many options opne to them regarding Eddy and they are not in the habit of closing threads because of one person. As a veteran of many closed threads I can tell you it is a collective punishment for transgressions committed by a mob.




"Maybe we can have the discussion without trying to sledge it into racism this time.


Fair enough SWL *at your request* I will leave racism out of this thread.



"I see no point in avoiding discussing a topic just because one person fails to understand the issues.

Although given your inability to understand racism following this comments core idea I see to avoid "discussing a topic just because one person fails to understand the issues".



Arnnie your question is fantastic, "Are people who constantly complain about Christianity also racist?" and the answer is ofcourse not.

I complain about christianity a whole lot but I also do my upost to avoid racist thinking. However Id say people who virtually constantly complain about one religion at the exception of all others do leave a lot of doubt about their deeper motivations. Especially when they could easily open the focus of their critical attacks does start to look like a racist when the majority of that religions practitioners are a different ethnicity to the complainer.

Lets say their was a thread discussing "indigenous people" wherein one reseacher who had raised a lot of suspicion regarding the root motives for their rabid anti-Islam posts choooses to throw mud at Muslims when all the British people on that thread who related their experience attested tat they found many more chirstians involved in the practice that Muslims were being decried for. The same poster also went on to lie and say that Muslims had some special protection that allowed them to do this terrible thing and mentioned how he was barred by law from physically attacking Muslims.

Does that make you wonder it does make me wonder.

Now if a black baptist were claiming all sorts of unpleasant things that were true of a few Moromons were true of all Mormons and the majority of Mormons they knew were white Id be looking at racism there. Sure its not base soley on skin colour but it is racist thinking.

Do you know what racism is?

I'll tell you because it's pretty clear that some people just dont. Its assuming that unfounded things are true of all people within a whole ethnic group or groups that may or not be true of only a few.

So when SWL gives us examples of how a few Islamists are bullying a larger liberal bunch of Muslims he then still manages to say on this here thread that it is Islam that is to blame. Even after he has told us that the majority of Muslims who follow Islam are liberal and victims of the few radicals he can still cast the whole of Islam under one nasty shadow in his mind, this is because of his racist thinking.

onelove

Is that really relevant to the issue at hand?

"I'll tell you because it's pretty clear that some people just dont. Its assuming that unfounded things are true of all people within a whole ethnic group or groups that may or not be true of only a few."

Those are modern innovations on the concept, read some Nietzsche.

There have been occassions when attacking Christianity could be viewed as racist. The Armenian genocide might be one. In places where significant numbers of people have rejected the traditional faith of their culture, it would likely be odd to describe it as such though.

The criticisms of Islam in the UK tend to focus very heavily on Bangladeshi and Pakistani versions of Islam. Other types, such as the boozing, pot-smoking Far-Eastern Muslims I'm used to, tend not to get mentioned much.

But I agree that shouting racist was never a sensible decision in that thread gone by. I don't think its reasonable to stifle all criticism of a system of ideas simply because some people may be using it disingenuously.

Which bit or do you mean all of it?

I have tried to latch onto some things other people have brought up...it's a caonversation, that's sort of how they work.


Are these the issues you would prefer I addressed?

"If Islam is such a tolerant religion, why does it regard the wearing of such compulsory on part of those Muslims and non-Muslims who do NOT wish to wear it?

The facts are terribly simple and staring us in the face!

book>



If christianity/Hinduism/Sikhism are such a tolerant religions why cant people walk around naked, marry outside their caste or stage certain contentious plays without some practitoners of those religions imprisoning, ostyracising or killing people who just want to live their own way?

The facts are terribly simple but some people let their own prejudicies obscure them for themselves and encourage them to lie to others.

Islam is by far and away, the most intolerant belief system the world has ever seen! In the opinion of some. My anscestors who were raped by christian clerics and forced to be christian under threats of the worst kind stripped of their language and culture by people who went to church would have a very different view of things. So would the christians put to death by the pagan Romans

But that's history and facts for you, you can try to see the whole thing to devine some kiknd of truth or you can focus on what your prejudices are.

one love

Novo

BB, stop being silly.

This thread just seems to be people having a pop at each other. Grow up the lot of you.

Yes, that is the pot calling the kettle.

I may be silly, but I am not *being* silly.

Of course all this is precisely why I thought we shouldn't "do" this thread until Jimster has found his answer about the legalities and decided whether or not to re-open the origional.

For the record Blicky has it on the money about the thread closure. When this is done it is all about collective punishment. If it is just one person then "Pre-Mod" is sooooo much easier.

Yup, it's amazing how many people bring their prejudices to the keyboard before seeing the bogeyman that isn't there. The very same people who come over all self-righteous and holier-than-thou before projecting their fears onto others.

Take Blicky, deals with racism every day and never stops looking for it.

Islam is the root of Islamic violence. That so many disavow the intolerant part of their religion is to be praised, but it doesn't make the religion any nicer. It just means that nice people don't feel the need to do nasty things because a book tells them to.

If the infinite number of monkeys finally type something legible, does it make the rest valid? Similarly with Nick Griffin. 99% of what he says is cr@p, but if he argued tomorrow for free school milk for all, would the issue of school milk be racist?

And the idea of a sub-text is balderdash. Can anyone accuse me of shying away from calling a spade a spade? If I thought Islamic violence was down to a specific race, I wouldn't hesitate to say so and hell mend the lot of you.

I am prejudiced against Islam and I believe I have good reason to be.