h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Just to clarify further why I don't think this is a logical fallacy:


>>
also in your #54:

"I know you want there to be some kind of logical consistency, but unfortunately most racism has very little to do with logic."

What I've been saying again and again is that I want more logic from the opponents of racism. Again, where did I ask for logic is racism? I asked for the opponents of racism to employ logic.
<<

My response about racism being not logical was an oblique post after yours. Without a fuller explanation at the time of why I posted that it was probably a non-sequitur. But it wasn't an illogic within my own view of racism*, it simply didn't make much sense to you and probably just sounded really stupid.


*which is where I've been thinking you perceive illogical fallacies, i.e. in my views on racism. The fact that I made a post that wasn't a particularly logical thing to say at that point is more about me being tired than my arguments here on racism being not logically consistent.

>>Well, you did use the word "Islamaphobia" in your original post, and to my understanding not many people have control over their phobia's do they?

You're quite right. I concede that I mis-used the term 'phobia'. I did not mean to imply a medical condition outwith sufferers' control (although such phobias can be managed succesfully with Cognitive Behaviour Therapy). I was following the popular usage in which Islamaphobia denotes an obsessive and selective criticism of Muslims motivated by a racist subtext, whether conscious or unconscious.

So, leaving aside your- somewhat pedantic - point, my comment stands.

Morning all,

This thread has degenerated from a discussion into an arguement, and IMHO it has now reached the level of "Point Scoring".

Novo

You think?

Trouble is there are serious and raw issues at stake from the first thread.

Until such a time as TPTB come to us with some guidance then I am afraid that this is always going to be a problem.

Please note that I am refraining from contributing except when questions or comments are explicitly directed at me - in which case it's only fair. However, I don't believe I have been trying to score points, merely to put forward my views as best as I am able.

I agree with Novo on this.

However, as for needing 'guidance from TPTB', surely if this thread was carried out in a mature manner without this whole farcical "repeating things doesn't make them true", "I'm not racist, define racist, can you define racist?", "this is the problem with you" malarkey then surely this shouldn't come up on TPTB's radar...

I'm not actually sure what the purpose of the thread is. I know that a newbie* started it, but you can't really expect to start a part 2 of a thread that has only just been closed down and not have the same kind of issues come up.

*waves to newbie Prashna. Do stick around Prashna, it's not always like this

What?

The last thread was specifically closed because of problems and legal implications.

Anyone who does not think that this topic is capable of spilling over into issues surrounded "Racism" is in my opinion naive.

Just listen to what the BNP say on these topics and then tell me that this kind of discussion is going to be necessarily insulated from racial politics.

From Prashna:
"I sympathise with you that your “anscestors were raped by christian clerics”. Exactly, how long ago was that?

I also sympathise with “the christians put to death by the pagan Romans” I believe that was about 2000 years ago. Am I right?

The sad truth is that we live in the here and now. We have no choice. And we have to meet the problems that are facing us here and now, not fight yesterday’s battles.



This sortof illustrates my point about themindless, dogged and biased bashing o islam that is going on right now, in other threads in various media and not just by SWL.

It doesnt matter what system o beleifs the problems eminate from they are human stand points, sure they are passed on through or people claim justification from MeinKampf, the Bible or which ever book of their choice. What we are doing by attacking the bnook and its followers is playing into the hands of those with paranoid fantasies and margninalising ordinary followers.

It is a no-brainer to ask a Muslim if they think Islam is the best religion and if society should be run according to its tennets. they would say yes just as a Christian is likely to say yes they think Christianity is the best religion and we should live according to the bible. however Id bet my hairy plumbs that most christians and muslims dont want to see people stoned for trangressing their Gods laws.

To paraphrase the old saying:

"if you want to be treated like an adult act like one".

"If we want t people to be tolerant and pulralisitc shoudnt we be tolerant and pluralistic? Rather than condeming whole groups of people because of their tenuous connnections with a few violent radicals?

SWL, let me assure that yes I do "look" for racism, but when I see it and you dont dont not presume that you are always right that its not there just because you cant see it. I look for racism in the same way that pedestrians look for traffic. I think that you look out for racism in the same way that Volvo drivers look for motorcyclists. You look but not as hard because at the end of the day racism affects you in your life so much less just a a collision between a motorcyle and a Volvo affeacts one so much more than the other.

one love

If it's point scoring then who's winning?

>>
"If we want t people to be tolerant and pulralisitc shoudnt we be tolerant and pluralistic? Rather than condeming whole groups of people because of their tenuous connnections with a few violent radicals?
<<

That pretty much sums it up for me.


>>
I look for racism in the same way that pedestrians look for traffic. I think that you look out for racism in the same way that Volvo drivers look for motorcyclists. You look but not as hard because at the end of the day racism affects you in your life so much less just a a collision between a motorcyle and a Volvo affeacts one so much more than the other.
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You've been coming up with some rather good analogies lately, blicky.

I'm racist.

I was brought up in a place where if you saw a black face you did a double-take. Foreigners were scarce. And the few that did exist were, like my family, white.

Now, Ireland has, very suddenly, become a country of imigration. The second-most spoken language in the country is no longer Irish, but Polish. That has a fairly strong effect on a country's sense of identity. And there are many black people around, mainly, it seems, from Nigeria. Remember, now, that if you see a black person in Ireland over the age of five, the chances are fairly high that he or she was born outside the country. So certain generalisations about accent, and even general cultural outlook, are probably fairly acurate and perhaps excusible.

In such a climate, it would be a near miracle were I not, in a certain sense, racist. I apply (unconsciously, mainly, though I try to be aware of it) assumptions to people of different races.

This is an unusual sense of the word. It's one kea often uses, and she does not intend it as an insult. She's just trying to make people think and to examine their internal thought processes. Always a good thing, I think.

Quote: "I have no evidence that your racism is above the level of most people's in the West."

In other senses of the word, I certainly hope I am not racist. Perhaps I am. If anyone notices anything, let me know.

TRiG.

Good analogy Blicky and it certainly gives one pause for thought.

Is it racist of me when I see someone about to play me at Go and they appear Chinese or Japanese I assume they will be good. There is plenty of evidence but it is making a judgment based on race.

Probably is racist yes. You can't assume an individual is subsumed under a group tradition. One of my best friends is French and he's the worst cook in the world. But I'll admit it surprised me. We're all racist to a degree.

(breaking my rule of not contributing without being spoken too)

Let's not get too hung up with white liberal guilt. What we're about is opposing the *negative* impact stereotyping. So, for example:

"I enjoy the company of Americans. They're refreshingly informal"
"The Scots know how to have a good time"
"Italians are so cultured"
"Sudanese women are especially gorgeous"
"The Welsh are lovely singers"
"Polish plumbers are reliable and do good work"
"Arabs are always welcoming."

These are all generalisations which may or may not be true of their respective groups. But is anyone hurt or otherwise disadvantaged by them? HOWEVER...we should still be careful not to value people only to the extent that they fit our expectations of their national or ethnic qualities.

(The Sudanese one is definitely true, of course. A positive consequence of East African war and poverty is the increased visibility in Britain of tall, dark-skinned women with high cheekbones. Oooh, Mama!)

(btw...that last bit was intended as provocative irony. )

They're the Lithuanians of Africa.

I agree that the analogy is a good one.

But

<>

Does make me think that the reverse should be true, namely that when you see racism and SWL doesn't, you shouldn't presume that you are always right and that its there just because you do see it (or think you can, to try to make that sentence make sense).

Here's an interesting article about a muslim woman joining the US as a translator, the backlash and repercussions from her family:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/15/nyregion/15muslim.html?hp&ex=1166245200&en=df3797451d863131&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Well obviously that goes without saying, I thought, but your'e right some people might need, that the opposite can just as easily be true to be pointed out to them.