h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

As a male, born in 1941, educated in the 40's / 50's and married with wife and first child by 1964. with mortgage etc, I have often started threads, or contributed to others, from the perspective of my past.

HooToo has brought me up short sometimes as I get confronted by ideas and attitudes vastly different from my own! Consequently I have had to rethink some of my attitudes. One of the benefits of posting I suppose.

Please don't think that I need dragging into the 21st Century. I am not really V.Meldrew - I KNOW the world has changed, even though I am sometimes surprised at the rate and degree of it. Let's accept too that I don't want to go back to the past, or to rewind the clock.

However there are some things that I miss,- whilst accepting Mobile phones, the internet, better health care, a frig-freezer and a 28" flat screen tele' plus foreign holidays, central heating - and the rest of the list that we could all make, of the things which make life better - stop a minute and ask , Just because we are more comfortably off ( in general )are we actually happier or more contented?

For my part I regret the bad manners and bad language of today. Both IMHO are signs of the disengagement from other people that I see daily.
The one finger (or 2) gesture when someone 'thinks' you have cut them up, the rudeness evident in the streets. The lack of any sign of people giving up their seat on a bus to someone older. In short the lack of any respect towards others, or compassion or comprehension that other people have rights too.

Perhaps the thing that has changed most is in matters of sex, where the disregard of the consequences of gratification without responsibility , the huge number of teenage pregnancies / abortions and the numbers of youngsters carrying and passing on STD's. Can anyone defend this as 'progress' or a 'good thing'?

I won't start another debate on classroom behaviour , but another poster ( who I assume is a teacher ) waxes lyrically about what I see as a diminution of respect and responsibility.

That's what I miss most. I was brought up to respect my elders we each had 4 grandparents then -(not the current multiples)and if he wasn't lost in the war , a dad. He always drummed into me Respect,Honesty Responsibilty,& hard work. To him, that is what marks a man.

Was he so wrong?

Novo

It's not as bad a thing as it used to be in the old days...

Sorry, I'll get me coat.

B

Afternoon Novo,

No he wasn't wrong and I assume you've abided by those tenets as part of your own personal code of behaviour. You will justify it by saying 'It has always stood me in good stead'. But the off stage whisper is 'and it should be good enough for you too'.

However things change, societies are created, evolve and become extinct. The current civilisation will always have it's own tenets, sometimes based on the old code of behaviour, sometimes evolved to cope with modern values.

What is new is the increased rate of change from the agricultural to industrial, onwards to the technological to the present information age. Previously you would measure the ages in centuries, then decades, now it can be years. The Internet only got going in the early 90's and here we are 10 years later chatting in a global, online, virtual pub. And it's free.

This week we've seen quotes from all ages, going back to Cicero and beyond, bemoaning the behaviour of youth. Nothings new, change ain't what it used to be.

Why worry? You live by a code of personal ethics and those beliefs are easier assimilated by osmosis rather than force feeding.

WA

Hi Novo. I'm not quite as old as you, but we are of the same generation. You have brought up an interesting subject again.

In the other thread, about bad language, I was trying to offer one possible explanation for why young girls are behaving more like young men. I hope that neither you nor the others took that as an endorsement from me for those actions. But neither did I like the double standard imposed on young girls when I was a girl. I think both sexes should share equal responsibility for their actions. By saying that it was unfair for the girl to be branded as a slut and socially stigmatized while the father of the child got off scott free, or for it to be ok for boys to drink but not girls, I wasn't advocating less responsibility, but more.

In our public schools - I'm not a teacher, I'm a library director, but have lots of friends who are teachers - discipline is much different than it was 40 years ago. Teachers aren't allowed to discipline their students in any meaningful way without the threat of a lawsuit. I was threatened with a lawsuit last week by an angry parent when we kicked his child out of the library for disruptive behavior.

Back to the subject of nostalgia - it is natural for us to veiw things in relationship to our life experiences. Take clothing. I remember dressing up when I was a girl in hat and gloves for special occassions, for church on Sundays, or even for going shopping. I like wearing comfortable clothes, but I miss dressing up. Half of the people I see nowadays look like unmade beds.

We don't have public transportation, so giving up your seat for an older person isn't an issue here. But I can't remember the last time I saw a young person open a door for an elderly person. My mother walks with a cane and has a hard time with heavy doors and packages. Years ago store clerks would have automatically offered to help someone in her circumstances with their packages. Not any more. And if she asks for help, many clerks resent having to help her.

Consideration for others should just come naturally. It's a shame that it is disapppearing.

Novo, although I am a wee bit younger than you, I tend to agree on a number of the things you cite.

<>

This is one of them! I give my seat to little old people, or the hugely pregnant, disabled etc, and fume silently when I see schoolboys defiantly sitting while someone laden with babies and shopping stands.

My views on sex without responsibility are well known!

I think we tend to be nostalgic - especially if we have been happy in the past.

I think that more teaching (from everyone, not just parents and/or teachers) about the responsibilities that having rights brings, would make some difference.

As for giving up seats, I never keep my trap shut if I think someone who should be seated is being prevented from having a seat by an able bodied person.

In fact I am in danger of turning into a grumpy old woman.

Although, as someone up there mentioned, I'm also not nostalgic for the double standards towards the behaviour of men/women, boys/girls.

F117267?thread=320934&latest=1
Smurfles has a memory thread of things and practices gone by if you would like to join in or lurk. It has been a bit slow lately but it never dies.
Smudger and the rest there have "experienced" many decades

I would like to know what everybody has done with the time they "saved" by having all these newer, faster, appliances and electronics! Speed seems to be a big selling point.

Well I'm working a 84hr week to pay for all my labour saving gadgets.

I don't think children today are happier that we were, in fact I think they're more deprived than we were. However I'm looking back at a comfortable middle-class childhood, albeit in a pit village. So I'm aware there were deprived and abused children in those days too, but at least they could leave home in the morning with a bottle of pop or water and a jam sandwich and play all day.

I've had this discussion a lot recently: were children really any safer back then?

I can accept the argument that there are now more cars on the road, so the danger of being run over is greater. But is there really any greater danger from predatory, non-family members, paedophiles or passing axe murderers?

All I can see from here, as a mother of a 7 and an 8 year old, is that when I'm in the UK and I mention that my kids are allowed out to our playpark alone (which I canot see from our house) I'm usually just a smidge away from being called a neglectful mother. As I understand it, the danger back then, as it does now, is more likely to come from someone known to the child/family.

But that's a tangent.

Although slightly related to what I just said: I miss trust. There seemed to be a fair bit more trust of people when I was younger. Or maybe that's because I was a kid and they tend to be more trusting?

I haven't lived long enough to feel nostalgic, and I certainly wasn't happier as a child than I am now, quite the opposite. But I did want to comment on one little thing: common courtesy.

I see a lot of kids lacking in it these days, BUT I also see a lot of adults lacking in common courtesy, which is why a lot of kids are lacking as well. You made a good example of giving up one's seat to an older passenger- which is something I always did, and I've offered to help hold/carry shooping bags, etc, as well.

I'm not that old at 33, but I injured my knee very badly a few years ago, and will eventually need surgery to repair it, if not replace it. I would give anything most days on the 30 minute commute home if *anyone* would offer me a seat so I wouldn't have to ice my knee before dinner each night. And even when a seat opens up, 90% of the time I am physically *pushed* aside by an older person with seemingly healthy legs, so they can take the seat. That's not especially courteous either, and that kind of sense of entitlement rubs off on younger folks, you know?

<> (PC)

Have to disagree with you there. People can feel nostalgic about things that happened last year.

I always offer my seat on the bus for either pregnant women, women with a small child (who would obviously be more comfy having them sit on their lap) or older people. But very often older people will thank me for offering but say they are quite happy standing.

Meanwhile, being me , and if I had a knee problem that made standing during a long commuting trip very painful, I'd go over
to the youngest and fittest looking person I could find and explain my situation and ask if they minded if I sat down. Why not?

<>

Well, I think the word 'seemingly' is the key one. They might have seemingly healthy legs, but they also might have spent the day doing something that left them feeling quite exhausted. We can't ever really know this, so I think it's always better to err on the side of compassion. I can imagine that even an afternoon out shopping or visiting my grandchildren (if I were older) would leave me feeling like I had barely enough strength left to stand up.

Mind you, whenever I see these people totter onto the bus I *do* go 'darn! Now I have to give up my seat!' But then when I watch them sigh heavily into my vacated seat I know I've done the right thing.


az

Well, and I don't automatically *assume* everyone is well, and I do take for granted that older people tire more easily and have more aches and pains than the average person, but I also don't think that gives anyone the right to push ahead of someone else to beat them to a seat. Hell, bad knee aside, nine times out of ten I offer my seat to anyone who looks older, and like you, pregnant ladies or people with small children. And while this may sound rude, I offer my seat to people who are quite overweight as well, perhaps it's wrong of me to assume that a heavy person would have more difficulty standing like that for a length of time. But man, some days, when there's a few hundred people smashed into each car and it's rocking back and forth, I would give all the money I have on me just to sit for a few minutes and give my poor knee a rest.

Thanks for bursting my nostalgia bubble- I was hoping it was something I'd have one day. I sure don't now... nothing has happened till recently that bears looking back on fondly.

>if I had a knee problem that made standing during a long commuting trip very painful, I'd go over
to the youngest and fittest looking person I could find and explain my situation and ask if they minded if I sat down. Why not?<

Because with my luck (while I live in a great neighborhood, the train home goes through some less great ones) I'd pick the young, fit person with a knife and I'd get a ride home, in an ambulance. Better safe than sorry, I don't deal with people on the street, no matter how clean-cut they appear to be.

I was on a crowded bus once with a toddler (nearly 2) and a baby in a sling. A woman offered me her seat, then berated me for putting my 2 year old in it - it wouldn't have been so bad if a woman, not much older than me, then demanded she give it up.

Until the bus driver (bless him) told everyone that in his view I'd done the right thing as the wee one wouldn't be able to hang on to anything and was at risk of falling over.



Mind you, very heavily pregnant, I had to faint on an overcrowded tram once, before an old lady gave me her seat in the absense of courtesy from any number of younger people (who may have been tired out after a long day - but I do believe that our need was greater) it didn't embarass any of them into giving up their seat though.

I'm quite nostalgic for all the fab children's TV we had when I was a girl.

You know, I have noticed many times when passengers get angry with a parent for placing a small child in a seat instead of themselves. I don't get that- how's a small child *supposed* to stand safely and hold on to handrails designed for adults- I can barely reach half of them myself.

What really burns me up is the people- of all ages- who put their feet up on the seat (as if anyone wants to sit in filth) or places their bags on the seats instead of the floor, especially during rush hours, and other passengers are standing. It's not a freaking chaise lounge, for pete's sake.

Afternoon Osh,

<< All I can see from here, as a mother of a 7 and an 8 year old, is that when I'm in the UK and I mention that my kids are allowed out to our playpark alone (which I canot see from our house) I'm usually just a smidge away from being called a neglectful mother. As I understand it, the danger back then, as it does now, is more likely to come from someone known to the child/family.

But that's a tangent.>>

I don't think hat is a tangent at all. It is part of my nostalgia in a way - why? - because I think that you are right in that children are more in danger from a family member, or someone they 'know', than a passing stranger, and I believe crime figures will bear that out. I read somewhere that there are no more child murders now than there were in the 50's.

Certainly when I grew up the TRUST factor was much higher!. My brothers and I were out after breakfast on long summer days in East Anglia, taking sandwiches and pop, and only came home at about 4.00 pm for tea. This was regular too, and mum never seemed worried.

Perhaps that is one thing we should be concerned about for todays kids. So many of them seem to be 'confined' by parental fears that they don't go out to 'play' which , by taking them outside their home/school groups can let them develope the ability to interact with other people.

Looking at some of the other posts it seems that communication skills are missing, the young don't understand the old and vice versa - perhaps that is whay leads to angst on both sides. The freedom to mix ,and to learn, was part of what makes me more able to empathise with others and ultimately, with dad's ringing commands in my ears , to respect others too.

Novo

Nah, basic respect *is* basic, Novo. Doesnt matter whichever generation people belong to.

If you don't respect others then you cannot respect yourself.

Probably the ancient Romans had something to say about that - it's nuthin new.

az

I think the parental fear thing is another symtom of our wonderful tabloid press. The worst example being when the bunch of no brainers mobbed the paediatrician thinking she was a paedophile.

When we were kids, late 50's early 60's the default location was out, as in 'What are you doing in'. Now it is in. Having said that I was politely asked for 'a penny for the guy' by three kids yesterday and they had taken the trouble to make guys. Hope springs eternal.

Hi AZ

Marcus Tullius Cicero rears his head again then ?

You are right in that 'respect' is non-generational, but it has to be learnt doesn't it. Interacting with people,instead of a computer or an X Box must help, at least it should teach patience rather than the expectation of 'instant' gratification!

I am thinking of an old chap who helps at the Club for the Blind locally. He is 80 odd, and I had always thought him a bit of an old Far* until I got chatting with him. Then I discovered he had lied about his age to get into the Royal Navy and had spent time on the infamous Russian Convoys of WW.II. In fact he was on the really infamous PQ17 Convoy. His tale raised hairs on my neck whilst his stories of being trapped by the ice at Murmansk was hilarious.

So I looked upon him with more respect than perhaps I normally would, because I had been forced to take him out of a pigeon hole, to interact with him in other words.

Novo

<>

I've often wondered if statistically there is more crime against children than when I was a kid or just more news stories about it when it happens. And stories that would have only received local attention in those days now get national coverage.