h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: The "V" sign - A1017154
Author: Zagreb - U181271

For all those who were at the Scottish meetup on the 5th of April - told you I'd do it!

It's short but to the point (rather like an arrow from an english longbow). I'd be grateful if anyone can tell me how I should elaborate it. And, yes, I will probably turn it into Guide ML soon.

Weren't the majority of archers Welsh? Just a half-memory from school...

I have a feeling this story is apophrical, like the bulls horns which have different meanings in different societies, some gestures have a local meaning which does not always lend itself to logical explanation.

I think this is one of those,

Thanks for the comments

I don't think it's apophrical. There *are* variations on the story, but they tend to get the date massively wrong (Napoleonic Wars) or think it's the American "one finger" gesture.

The "English bowmen" origins is pretty well known here. I will look into it, though.

Zagreb

The majority of archers *were* Welsh, which is why they get start billing in Henry V.

I don't think this origin for the V sign is generally accepted. It is often repeated, but I've never seen any evidence for it. Another possible explanation is the Italian V symbol: you make a V in the traditional way, then put your nose in the gap and press upwards to make your nose stick out resembling a penis. This has exactly the same significance as the America single finger salute.

Winston Churchhill used a V sign to denote Victory, generally with palm facing the public, but as far as I know not always. This makes me wonder whether the insulting V has been around as long as people think.

There is actually only evidence against it. There was no system of taking POWs in those days, not even one allowing mutilation of the opposition. Taking prisoners was done to ransom them, and lowly bowmen wouldn't have rich relatives to pay a ransom.
Also, no enemy would be able to see which, or even how many, fingers a bowman was shaking at him, the whole advantage of the longbow was standing well back from an bow-less adversary and kill him while he couldn't reach you.
If you can find a source for this that is at least a couple of hundred years old I'll admit defeat (even something pre-internet would be impressive), but I think it much more likely that this is a later folk-'etymology'.

There's an actualy etymology for 'f**k y**' that uses the same back-story in an even less plausible way. Not that this indicates anything.

You managed to remember you said you would right this after Saturday night Zagreb

"Also, no enemy would be able to see which, or even how many, fingers a bowman was shaking at him, the whole advantage of the longbow was standing well back from an bow-less adversary and kill him while he couldn't reach you"

Apparently, the gesture was not used during combat, but as a general gesture of defiance against France after the battle. It may even have been years before it came into use.

This entry is a bit limited as it stands. There are other meanings for the sign as well such as "Peace" and "Victory". The sign has absolutely no offensive connotations in the US.

The funniest known use of the 'V' sign (to me, that is!) was on The Young Ones, in the episode where they go on University Challenge. It's the bit where Motorhead play the Ace of Spades, while the guys are trying to catch a train at Bristol Temple Meads station.

Vyvyan rushes past the buffet kiosk, stops, walks up to the counter, stuffs an entire doughnut into his mouth, sticks his 'V's up at the woman behind the counter (who is trying hard not to laugh) by way of greeting, and runs off again.

I think the article needs to acknowledge that the archer story may not be true, and also talk about the other uses of it and other possible origins. Churchill, French resistance chalking it on walls to bug the Germans (people were shot for this) etc.

It's an interesting issue, worth a more complete treatment.

Sprout

If the title is to represent the content it should mention the peace sign and the victory sign, which as far as I'm aware are always with the palm facing out. In the case of the peace sign it is not necessary for the fingers to be pointing up. Both cases the gesture is normally held steady.

In the case of the insultive gesture the way the fingers are raised emphasises the insult. Normally this would be to extend the finger forward palm up and raising the hand so that the finger points upward. Extra emphasis is achieved by repeating the motion.

I've no idea of the origin, but it was popularised in the Sixties (or maybe early Seventies) by show jumper Harvey Smith. The gesture even became know for a while as a "Harvey Smith" might be worth a mention, up to you.

SK

There's some stuff on the origin at this site http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/yew.html

It's a bit confusing, but worth a look.

Sprout

It's also known as the "British Workers' Salute".

I think an inclusion of the story of why it's known as a 'Harvey Smith' (he did it at the judges after winning) would certainly add to the entry. Having browsed the 'net on the subject, I have come across several sites which suggest Churchill knew damn well what a V sign palm facing in meant- the idea being to appeal to the common man- he wasn't just saying 'victory', he was also indicating 'up yours' to the Germans.

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/002462.html

For a link which mentions this.

The first photograph of it being used as an insult- which I came across on the 'net, is from an 1913 football match, and there is a quote from a book indicating its first recorded us... Sorry to be so vague

Thanks for all this advice.

I think I will expand the article to include more about the sign's more recent history, and about those famous times when it has been deployed.

Wasn't Liam Gallagher fond of the "V" sign not so long ago?

Zagreb

"I think the article needs to acknowledge that the archer story may not be true, and also talk about the other uses of it and other possible origins. Churchill, French resistance chalking it on walls to bug the Germans (people were shot for this) etc."

I think I will change the article to make reference to this explanation being a *possible* origin of the "V" sign.

As this entry is really short (not quite a one liner, but almost), I wonder if it might not be helpful to look at rude finger gestures as a whole, which would make a rather more meaty entry, and be fun to read too.

What do you think?

Hmmm, not sure. I think it would make more sense to expand the entry to cover all the uses of the V, peace, victory, up yours. That would create a decent sized entry. Expanding it to cover rude gestures could take forever, and would mean the other uses of the V would be missed out....