A Conversation for Defining Terms of Belief

Certainty

Post 1

Fathom


"Certainty describes a state - unattainable in reality - whereby something is known with complete precision, with no possibility of error. Some humans actually believe they have entered this state of intellectual nirvana. A dangerous illusion."


Dangerous to whom? And in what way?

F


Certainty

Post 2

Gone again

PC:

F:

Humans.

F:

A human who is certain may act in unpredictable ways.... smiley - winkeye

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"


Certainty

Post 3

Fathom


Hi P-c,

You walked into the trap then? smiley - biggrin

Surely a human who is certain is a bit more predictable than one who is confused - even if he's wrong?

Seriously; 'certainty' may be a faith position but is it more dangerous than any other? At no point was faith, belief or religion described as dangerous in this article so why the unilateral condemnation of certainty?

And why is it dangerous to act in unpredictable ways?

F


Certainty

Post 4

Mu Beta

As the Sub, I feel a moral right to take the side of the author. So...

Something that I am certain about, including all its little knock-on effects on my behaviour and my other conclusions, may be utterly baffling to someone else. So the someone else will not be able to predict the consequences of something that I am certain about. Rationality can be an immensely flexible term in some circumstances.

Magnify all the above by 10 after I've had more than 5 pints. smiley - biggrin

B


Certainty

Post 5

Gone again

<'certainty' may be a faith position but is it more dangerous than any other?>

Not *more* dangerous, no. I make this point wherever I can because I have found the world to be populated (at least in part) by humans who believe there are things about which they can be certain (as defined in the entry you're commenting on). I believe certainty, as defined, to be quite impossible for a human, and I believe I can explain why this is so. So I continue to labour the point.... smiley - winkeye

There was a trap? smiley - huh

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Certainty

Post 6

Fathom

Trap? I was pretty certain you would reply to my question. smiley - smiley

I'm not arguing against your hypothesis that certainty is impossible "for a human"; merely asking a question.

So: why is it 'dangerous'? - In other words what possible harm can I come to if I claim that I am certain of something? Aside, of course, from the obvious hazard that I'll receive one of your postings demonstrating that I can't be. Which I can choose to ignore (though I'd never be so rude).

And if 'certainty' is a faith position that is no *more* dangerous that any other - to paraphrase your reply - does this imply all faith positions are equally dangerous? smiley - winkeye Isn't 'certainty' something of a subjective issue anyway?

F


Certainty

Post 7

GentleZacharias

Certainty is dangerous because a person who is certain is less likely to accept any evidence that they may be wrong, and then if they are, they are likely to walk face-first into all kinds of trouble. Thus, if I am CERTAIN that a bridge will hold my weight, for whatever reason I am certain of it, I will be much less likely to listen to you telling me that it won't than if I merely BELIEVED that the bridge would hold my weight. And therefore, if the bridge is in fact unsafe, I am more likely to fall. Certainty isn't dangerous so much to outside parties as to the one who is certain.
-Rivaine
smiley - booksmiley - geek


Certainty

Post 8

Fathom

Hello Rivaine, I don't believe we've met (though I'm not certain of it).

smiley - ok

That's a good answer - and quite possibly also true of anyone holding any other kind of a faith position. It does present a similar danger to outside parties where the person concerned has some kind of authority or control over them - the bridge builder for example.

Not often someone steps in to assist Pattern-chaser. Not often he needs it!

smiley - cheers

F


Certainty

Post 9

Gone again



smiley - laugh



At the least, you are 'poetically correct', so it would be churlish of me to attempt a rebuttal, even if I could. smiley - winkeye

Thanks, Rivaine, for the excellent example of what I was talking about. smiley - ok

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Certainty

Post 10

Fathom


'Poetically Correct'

smiley - laugh

It's good to be PC, P-c.

F


Certainty

Post 11

GentleZacharias

Oh my, bad puns, the ultimate nerd jokes...smiley - laugh


Certainty, Knowledge and Faith

Post 12

gaston

An Irish priest during a small country parish mass was struggling to explain to his congregation the difference between certainty, knowledge and faith. He was something of an intellectual so he spoke in a manner which was above the heads of the little community. People began to yawn loudly and shuffle their feet.
The priest got angry.

"So you need a simple explanation for a complex problem? Very well you shall have one. Look there at Mr and Mrs Cahill in the front row."

The congregation turned attention to the Cahills,
hoping for some diversion.

"Between them are their two charming children, Oonagh and Sean. Now Mrs Cahill knows for certain they are her children. That's Knowledge. Mr Cahill believes they are his children. That's Faith."



Certainty, Knowledge and Faith

Post 13

Fathom


smiley - laugh

F


Certainty, Knowledge and Faith

Post 14

Gone again

PC:

F:

I never really answered these perfectly reasonable questions properly, so:

To whom? Any or all of us.

In what way? Well, the primary danger is that, having succumbed to the illusion of certainty, people might start to act as though those things about which they believe they are certain are actually certain! smiley - winkeye The primary consequence of this is that anything which contradicts something 'certain' becomes almost invisible. Thus the ability to learn and grow is compromised, to some extent. There is a lovely Feynman quote about this:

"If we will only allow that, as we progress, we remain unsure, we will leave opportunities for alternatives. We will not become enthusiastic for the fact, the knowledge, the absolute truth of the day, but remain always uncertain... In order to make progress, one must leave the door to the unknown ajar."

The illusion of certainty is doubly dangerous because it is widely thought that certainty *is* possible smiley - huh *and reasonable* smiley - doh in the real world. Thus (IMO!) it needs opposing at every mention ... which is why I always jump in when someone mentions it! smiley - winkeye

We don't need certainty to live our lives. smiley - doh The knowledge we have to which we can assign a very high probability is more than sufficient for our needs, I suggest. smiley - ok

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Certainty, Knowledge and Faith

Post 15

PrimeDjin

Well, if one must be certain of something, there's death; everybody can be dead certain about it. If certainty cannot be achieved in any other domain of life, at least you can use its very end as a knot to a thread before you start sewing patterns. Methinks


Certainty, Knowledge and Faith

Post 16

Gone again



You think so? OK, what (exactly) *is* death? Can you think of a way in which you could be certain that death has occurred (standard disclaimer smiley - winkeye: given that humans don't have objective perception)?

Nothing is certain, but don't get hung up about it: who cares? smiley - biggrin

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"


Certainty, Knowledge and Faith

Post 17

PrimeDjin

Umm, k, one thing at a time

1) I don't think, I know so

2) death sir, as far as I've witnessed, is what happened to my granny two years ago; she stopped moving, breathing, bickering and pretending to be deaf in order to annoy people. Promptly, they burried her 6ft under earth soil and she hasn't protested yet (this is proof enough for the people who knew her that she couldn't possibly be among the living). I bet you anything you want that was the last we saw of her, and I only bet when I'm dead certain that I'll win.

3) as about how could I be certain that death has occured, umm, the question is not if one could be certain that it HAS occured, but that sooner or later it unescapably WILL. voili-voilĂ 

merry Xmas! smiley - cool


Certainty, Knowledge and Faith

Post 18

Fathom


Hmmm...

F


Certainty, Knowledge and Faith

Post 19

gaston

And then there was the true case of the young attorney who had seen too many Perry Mason episodes and decided to harass a doctor who had performed an autopsy.

A:Was the victim dead when you performed the autopsy?

D.No, he was sitting up on a table wondering why I was performing an autopsy on him.

A: Just answer the question. Was he or was he not dead?

D: He was.

A: Had you checked his pulse.

D: Yes.

A: His breathing?

D. Yes.

A. Nevertheless he could still be alive?

D. Impossible.

A. How can you be so certain?

D. Because his brain was lying in a jar opposite me.

A. Even given that, it is still remotely possible that he could still be living is it not?

D. I suppose he could still be alive and practising law somewhere.




Certainty, Knowledge and Faith

Post 20

Gone again



Seconded! smiley - biggrin

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"


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