h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

<...I keep getting shut down. Oh well, I tried.>

Don't give up unless you're convinced, Rivaine! I believe I have the right of it so far, but I'm still listening, if you have anything to add...?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Good Morning azahar,

"Well, I may be somewhat certain about the sun rising tomorrow morning but I am never certain about myself doing the same . . ."

There you are; nothing to worry about. I'm sure both you and the sun will be rising for many more mornings.

F

Sorry Rivaine, did I tread on your toes; or was it someone else?

For the record I can see a difference between something being certain and someone believing it to be so, with or without proof.

F

hi Fathom,

<>

Oh phew! One less thing to worry about then.

az

...or possibly one more thing to worry about.

F

Oh no, no, my toes are fine
Here's something, though--no matter how uncertain certainty is (just had to use that, pardon me) in order to function in daily life we have to suspend some doubt and maintain the expectation that things will happen the way they have done in the past. Thus, if I drop a rock and see that it hits the ground every time I do, in order to continue doing the things I do every day I have to assume, even though it's true that it's not certain, that it will continue to hit the ground. If I don't assume that, I wouldn't be able to function.
-Rivaine

<...in daily life we have to suspend some doubt and maintain the expectation that things will happen the way they have done in the past.>

Suspend doubt? Surely it's the opposite? Doubt is the normal and rational state of a human being living in the real world. Our understanding of the real world, from the perspective of our day-to-day lives, is good, so our ability to predict what's going to happen in that world is also good. Our expectation that things we let go of will fall to the floor is a reliable and well-tested one. We know it isn't certain - a gust of wind or a burst of anti-gravity could see to that - but we know it's likely enough to rely on most of the time. That's all we've ever known, and ever will know (IMO). It's enough, I think. Certainty is a red herring. Forget about it. We never needed it anyway!

To live our lives, we need no assumptions except the obvious one you mention: to assume that something very likely to happen, will happen. Without that we couldn't function. But we, and our ancestors, have already been doing that for hundreds of thousands of years, quite successfully. This isn't new, and nor is what I'm saying about certainty.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

I disagree with you there P-c. Doubt may be rational but it is far from the normal state of a human being living in the real world. On the whole people take the world at face value and only develop doubt when they encouter conflicting information: sometimes not even then. It's only us cynics that regard doubt as the natural state of mind.

'Suspend doubt' sounds like something I would do when reading, say, Harry Potter.

F

hmmmm. . . doubt vs reality.

You know, I am never quite sure of the difference . . .



az

OK Fathom (Hi! ), I accept that the doubt I refer to is normally in the 'back of one's mind', because we're normally right in our guesses about what the real world will do. Again I agree that this doubt (re)surfaces when the real world doesn't do what we expect.

I think that, although certainty is impossible for us, the things we are *most* sure of do *approach* a probability of 1, so we make a real-world assumption that we'll be right (i.e. we *assume* certainty - inaccurately, of course! ). Us cynics, as you say, endeavour to keep the doubt a little closer to consciousness than others may.

Isn't suspending *belief* (or our *critical faculties*) what we normally say we do when we read Harry Potter? Not that it matters much!

In short I think I agree with you, Fathom, all I'm doing is clarifying and re-stating the case in my own words. Would you agree?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Not that this is really integral to the central discussion, but I would say that while there may appear to be conflicting information, nature qua nature prohibits contradictions. To paraphrase, if you think you are observing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

On the other point, I would think that most of the world in fact does not take the world at face value, but rather maintains a great deal of suspicion toward much of it. People in particular who were born and raised in very difficult circumstances e.g. poverty or widespread violence would probably have doubt and uncertainty bred in the bone, so to speak.

-Rivaine