h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hello, I'm a recent arrival here, with an interest in opera. I am researching an entry on a short history of opera, so my searches have turned up your work-in-progress on French music. One thing I am wondering about is the difference between Grand Opera and Opera-comique. I see that you have Bizet listed as one of the Grand Opera composers, but I thought that Carmen was regarded as the crowning glory of the opera-comique tradition. And didn't quite a few composers compose in different styles for the two opera houses?
Azara

More thoughts on Grand Opera!
For examples, I would include Halevy's La Juive (1835). I know that Meyerbeer was originally German, but he seems to have been one of the most important composers of Grand Opera for the Paris house, so maybe he deserves a mention - perhaps for Les Huguenots (1836) or Robert le Diable (1831). I was surprised to find when checking Gounod's Faust, that it was originally performed at the Theatre Lyrique (which was an opera-comique house) and that Gounod only added recitative and ballet music later, to make it a full Grand Opera.
Azara

Oops!
I just realised that most of my references in the above post were to the earlier period, which you are only mentioning as background. I still think that the Grand Opera/ Opera-comique divide is worth explaining a bit more.
Azara

Hi Azara - and welcome!

Your thoughts on Opera are relevant - even if some of it is about the earlier period. I'd like to link them in, but without adding too much to the length of this entry ...

How would you feel about writing them out as an entry? I (and others on the team) can help you shape the words up, and your entry can (if you want) become part of this h2g2 University project...

Have a think, and let me know (here) if you're interested - I'll tell you more. It's a good way to get started on writing contributions to the Guide...

Thanks again for your ideas. Thery're good!

Hello to the Archangel Kes!
I've been thinking about your suggestion, and I feel that the best way for me to contribute is to write up a separate entry on French Opera, as raw material. At the moment, I wouldn't be able to cut it off strictly at the 1870 end of the period (I don't think the 1940 end is as much of a problem!) So if I sort out my ideas first, then you can take out the bits that you think are useful for the main project, and reshape whatever's left to fit in with the main articles.
Does that sound reasonable?
I don't know what timescale you're working on - I'll try and put my stuff together fairly quickly.
Azara

Azara,
I think that's an excellent suggestion - very happy for you to create the entry, and then we will put appropriate references & links in the main "French Music" entry. As you say, they should be some outline material we can use for that - which we'll gratefully accept!

One advantage of creating an entry as part of a Uni. project is that you get a "fast track" through the review process, so your entry gets published a lot quicker. Another nice touch is that while individual entries are on the front page for one day, Uni projects are featured on the front page for a whole week. I will add you to the Project team, and tell the Uni. that you're contributing.

I am trying to get all the entries completed over the next two weeks, but there isn't a formal deadline, so you just let me know how it goes. When you create the first draft (as an entry on your page), post the URL here, so I can pick up the reference later.

Great to have you with us! Looking forward to seeing your article ... and do shout if you need anything!
Kes

Hi Azara, great to have you on the team!

I did a bit of research on the pre-1870 scene for the main article and have tons of material, though most of it is in French! - drop me a line if you need some quick references on anybody.

You are right in saying that 1870 wasn't quite as significant to dramatic music as it was to orchestral, but there seemed to be a shift from the lighter to the darker moods.

I would have guessed that the apex of Opera Comique was Offenbach's 'Orpheus in the Underworld' (1858), 'La Belle Helene' (1864) and 'La Vie Parisienne' (1866). It is interesting that after 1870, Offenbach felt able to write 'Tales of Hoffmann' which if not quite serious, is definitely reflective.

The Light Opera trend of Auber (very light), Halevy, Meyerbeer, Thomas continued beyond 1870 but wasn't so dominant a force I think. Check out the biographical details of Auber, it's quite revealing.

At the heavier end, the Operas of Berlioz and Bizet did not become popular until after both were dead, and Gounod's fortunes definitely rose after 1870.

Any best of luck and good to have you with us!

Thank you, Seth, for the welcome, and the information. I've realised that the terms "Light Opera", "opéra-comique" and "operetta" can be confusing, and I'm working on a better explanation of them for my entry. I hope to finish the first draft in another couple of days, then I'll post the link here and you can see what you think.
Azara

Great! Look forward to seeing the draft

Care to cast an eye on first draft of a Massenet bio? Its at A550720. All comments welcome

Archangel Kes -
Sorry, I missed your post earlier (I still amn't quite used to keeping up with my converstions correctly).

I really like this Massenet bio. It's interesting and covers quite a lot of detail but is still a very readable length. Very nice! Is it worth mentioning his librettists, or their sources in literature (Abbé Prevost for Manon, Anatole France for Thais, Cervantes etc.)?
One little point - isn't "prima donna" Italian, not Latin, in which case the plural would be something like prime donne (and of course almost bound to be mispronounced!)

I still have to add a paragraph about Berlioz and some more details about the listed operas to my draft entry on French Opera(which has ended up too long!) I'll be gone for the weekend, so at this stage it will be next Monday or Tuesday before I have the draft finished. Feel free to comment on what's there at A546211 - I see that you have already set up a link to it!
Regards,
Azara

Azara,

Good to hear from you. btw ... do you mark conversations for subscribing to them (the link at the bottom of page). I do that - it helps me keep up with them all.

Thanks for the comments ... I wondered about librettists ... not sure. Maybe if you refer to them in the "opera" article ... what do you think? You're probably right about prima donna! Ooops! I'll refer it to the sub-editor for an authoritative version! ... Which reminds me ... the sub-editor for this project has started work on the main article and the Massenet & Satie bios ... which means we're getting close. Plenty of time for you to work on your entry (as you indicated - early next week). Just let me know when you reckon it's ready, and I'll tell the sub-editor. I've read your piece a few times, and i feel the whole project is fitting together really well.

Keep up the great work!

Kes

My entry on French opera is finished at last!
It's at
http:/www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A546211

I've added the paragraphs on Berlioz and the post 1870 operas. If you want to take out any sections for the main article, go ahead. I only mentioned librettists in two or three of the most important cases. Two points of style I was wondering about - should I include English translations for all the titles? And should I list the composers' full names and/or dates?

Azara

I've had a read. I think it's looking really good. Great stuff!
OK - re. your questions, plus a couple of other points ....

The piece is just about ready to "roll" into sub-editing (then release), so you can remove the first para (about the project, and possible changes to the piece).
Composer details (dates etc). May I suggest that you try the same style I use in my entries?
I have a section (call it "major composers", or something like) which is simply a list of them, giving full names and dates. Then, in the rest of the piece, I just use their surnames. - Makes for easier reading.
I don't think we need to move any of your info between the pieces. Your piece reads so well as it is, I don't want to spoil the flow.

Finally, we need to put a couple if live links into your piece .. to the piece on French Music (wherever in your piece you think is appropriate ... somewhere near the start ... and also to the composer biographies, where available (e.g. Ravel, Saint-Saens, Massenet). Do you know how to do the GuideML markup for those links? If you're not sure, I'll show you how.
So - just say if you want a hand with the links, otherwise say when you've made the last changes ... as soon as you're ready, I will tell the sub-editor
Kes

Hi, Kes!
I did as you suggested, removed the temporary introduction and put in the links to the main French music article, also to Saint-Saens, Massenet and Ravel. I thought that my list of composers was so long that I'd better put it in an appendix - I think trying to put it in earlier would make the article seem even longer, and breaking it up would be tricky.

As far as I'm concerned, the entry's finished!
Azara

I've just read the article. I agree - it's done! ....and very nicely it reads too! I am going to tell the project sub-editor that this piece is ready for subbing ..... no more work required from you until it comes back for a last check. I'll keep you posted on how it goes. Once again - great work, and thanks for joining the project.

If you have any other entries on the go, and would like opinions, just ask ... I'd be happy to assist ... or if you get ideas for future projects ...

and, of course, I'll let you know when this project is released - it will get to go on the site's front page for a week

Thanks, Kes!
I'm going back to my general "History of Opera" entry (which is how I arrived with my French opera suggestions in the first place). It's nearly finished too, but it needs a little trimming. I'll probably be sending it for Peer Review fairly soon. Then I might take a break for a bit!
Azara

OK. Let me know when you put it into Peer Review ... I'll wander by and make nice comments Good luck with it! See you around!

Hi, Kes!
Just to let you know that I've put my History of Opera article in for Peer Review. Have a look, if you've time!
Azara

Yes please! Can you tell me its URL (or its Axxxxxx number)?