A Conversation for French Music (1870 - 1945)

Some early thoughts

Post 1

Seth of Rabi

Thank-you for your kind words, Kes.

I picked up a lot of background material last Jan, and the pause in proceedings gave the little grey cells chance to work out why I've never taken to French Light Opera !

Structuring this is going to be quite difficult I think. Unless we have a 'significant others' section the following works of the period are likely to be omitted from the entry to its detriment:

Carmen (Georges Bizet)
l'Arlesienne (Georges Bizet : died in 1875 but still only 37 and just getting going really)
Tales of Hoffmann (Jacques Offenbach)
La Redemption (Charles Gounod)
The Sorcerers Apprentice (Paul Dukas)
Songs of the Auvergne (Josef Canteloube)

Having said that, we have two major threads entering the period :

1) Post-Berlioz Nationalists : Saint-Saens, Faure, Lalo
2) Grand Opera : Bizet, Gounod, Delibes and Massenet.

The Franckists : Franck, Chausson, d'Indy quickly evolved from Saint-Saens' Societe Nationale to form a distinct symphonic school that seems to owe more than a little debt to Wagner, and became the third thread towards the later part of the century.

Are we to keep these groups separate, or mix them up?

Not all the above need an individual entry : Lalo, Massenet, Chausson and d'Indy can be mentioned in passing without losing too much.

Are Ravel and Debussey really as close as we learnt at school. To me Debussey is closer to Faure (listen to Pelleas et Melisande, then l'Apres-midi), Ravel to Gounod (Ave Maria) and perhaps Franck. Saint-Saens begat Satie; Delibes begat Canteloube. Highly controversial and subjective, I know but I don't think the threads ever did come together convincingly. Any unity seems to be at the level of a certain French classical daintiness of style.

I can probably do decent bios of Saint-Saens, Bizet, Gounod or Franck with what I have to hand. Shall I kick off with Saint-Saens?

Reading through the article so far, perhaps the last couple of paragraphs were done in a bit of a rush?!!

Perhaps, I could also volunteer an outro that covers such little known and dubiously French characters as Andre Jolivet, Darius Milhaud, Pierre Boulez and Olivier Messiaen ! he-he-he !


Some early thoughts

Post 2

Kes

Much food for thought ... (Agree - Debussy & Ravel are not really close at all!) I'm going to be off-line over the weekend. I'll give you a detailed response early next week, rather than rush it now. Thanks agin for your efforts! Talk soon.


Some early thoughts

Post 3

Kes

Bookmarking! Reply coming real soon smiley - smiley


Some early thoughts

Post 4

Kes

OK Seth - my thoughts on your comments:

Yes - we need to mention the "significant others". I suggest identifying the composers you mentioned in the list (with their dates); then mentioning the specific works as being relevant to the period. No need to do bios for these guys, I think.

Good idea to mention the Nationalist, Franckist & Grand Opera "threads"/groups ... they are relevant, and I think structure always helps with history. (BTW, I see Ravel as a logical point on the S-S, Faure thread ...). I will work this into the main piece.

Now we're getting subjective ... but I'm not sure about equating the Franckists to Wagner .... I think of them as being more subtle and simpler ... don't know.

...and I put Ravel closer to Faure (e.g. simple treatment of "awkward" 7ths & 9ths, unlike Debussy) ..... cetrtainly Ravel & Debussy are very different.

I agree with the "daintyness" as a good defining feature. I'll work that in.

In the "outro" we also need Poulenc - especially his Hymn to Freedom - as (for me) the last gasp of recognisable French music style.

Your thoughts?

I will update the article as indicated here - check it out & comment. Thanks again!


Some early thoughts

Post 5

Also ran 1

Hi, Have just found this wonderful article on French music and am following up some of the replies. What I do not know how to do is how to get to the various threads that you mention. I happen to love Debussy and studied him years ago when I was at school. Has there been something written on him and how to I get to it? Many thanks for identifying the really super French school. I had not realised how many composers there were!!. Kind regards AR1 smiley - schooloffish


Some early thoughts

Post 6

Kes

Thank you. I'm glad you like it. All the other topics\threads that we covered in this series of Guide entries are available as links from the French Music entry. For example, there is a link to French Opera ...as well as to several of the composers. Just click on the live links, which show as blue text. smiley - smiley


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